The Ordeal of the Siren.
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"What do you make of Lon Milo's statement that "the Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU.)" ?"
Short version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God.
Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind.
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I see no necessary conflict between the descriptions.
You mince words instead of attempting to assimilate them.
Nor, berated, will I submit to any more *requests for opinions *from you. You only discount them for being opinions and berate the individual who takes the time to respond to your own request for opinions.
Seriously, what were you expecting? A presentation of empirically-based evidence on the nature of the Great Order?
"Today, I think I'll ask for opinions that I'll naturally reject as mere opinions."
Once one sees the insanity of your game, it's really quite tedious.
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Well, in my thinking...
God is the popular conception and personification of a level within the One Mind that is above the usual sense of everyday self.
I imagine a spectrum from Being to Individual Mind. It goes something like this (though this is just a rough first attempt at description):
Being
Mind
Unified Abstract Mind
Unified Collective Mind
Collective Mind
Individual MindIn this organization, a human's spiritual progress (understood as "return") moves from Individual Mind to more Collective levels of Mind. Where it is no longer possible for the Collective Mind to become any more unified, it begins to cross beyond the levels of individuality (even understood as a collective) and begins to take on more of the nature of higher, abstract, "heavenly principles" or "rules" of Reality.
Beyond that is pure Being alone, and no remaining quality of individual beingness whatsoever remains.
And the cycle begins again...
Personally, I find the combination of the two attempted descriptions to be inspiring.
""*Simplest *version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God." - Bereshith
"Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind." - Bereshith
"The Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU." - Lon Milo Duquette
"And this awakening will spark a fire that will burn like a million suns. That fire; that radiance is the light of the Hermit's lamp. And it will be 'all that you are'. It will be the only magical weapon you have or will need. That light will be all that you will be able to give to your brothers and sisters. Your only gift to those in the world who are still to awaken to their 'aloneness'. Your only true contribution to the life you are a part of." - Lon Milo Duquette"
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God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me.
You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists.As for any True Order, their purpose is to serve.
Whether they serve your needs is the real question, me thinks.
A person whose tendency is to be a loner can find great magical power in the uniting of themselves within a group.
Though, I do not think the Work a person does in an Order should ever replace their own.
The two should be intertwined and if one is constantly at odds at the other, some self-reflection may be required.Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
EDIT:
Thought to add, that to be a good Teacher one must first be a good Student - the experience of being taught, so one might teach. -
Do what thou wilt shall be whole of the Law.
"God, a short hand easy way to write "Our Lord of Silence whom naught but Silence can express."
At least, that is what it means to me."
It's a good meaning.
"You put whatever your highest ideal is in the place of the word God, when you see in one of my posts the word God.
It is unfortunate that people fall into the rut of seeing God as the CHRISTIAN God.
I stopped bothering speaking to self-proclaimed Athiests about God as they are rarely able to separate the notion from Christianity.
Really, most Athiests are AChristians or A-Judeo-Christian-Islamists."Indeed. Though, I still think it's worth giving them a try, sometimes. Also, they have quite an important role in destroying dogma.
"Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren."
lol
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Uni_Verse said
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Of course, this whole post is falling prey to the Ordeal of the Siren.
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Don't they all?
Or in the very least, gone so far off topic that it's now morphed into a completely different thread.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
It's Dara's fault.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Nothing new there then
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You are pretty adept at going of on a tangent though
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Cool, we got back on track. I'd say yes for both questions.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Women get it too, I've seen this myself.
Basically though, a Siren is simply a projection of unbalanced nephesh that becomes apparent when a person starts to really aspire towards Binah, there is a sort of counter-pull from Malkuth that we experience as the Siren. This is nature trying to maintain the status-quo that you are upsetting by trying to 'get to' Binah.
This will continue until the aspirant succeeds in creating there own internal balance.
In my experience this Siren effect does not become apparent in a solitary practitioner, mainly because they haven't generally cranked up the pressure by formally dedicating themselves to the work. The act of will of beginning work on that scale is what triggers the adverse reaction.
Its a sad fact that often the most promising aspirants fail early on because the backlash from the nephesh immediately pulls them back down to malkuth as soon as they make the attempt to climb the tree, the inertia of there daily life and commitments is just too strong and as much as they might say they want to do the work, they simply cannot pull themselves away from 'old sweetnesses'.
If you are not formally dedicated to the work, then you have very little pressure to 'pass on', and so the nephesh doesn't tend to get stimulated into action in this way, or at least not so as you would notice.
As far as I can tell, the only cure is dedication to the task of your Grade, and a certain ruthlessness with regards to anything/anyone that gets in the way of that.
On the other hand, if you happen to get a boy/girlfriend who is happy for you to get on with your work, and doesn't distract you too much (That is, no more than a new girlfriend usually would
) then don't worry too much about it. -
@Dara said
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@Bereshith said
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"What do you make of Lon Milo's statement that "the Great Order has always been and will be forever more, an order of ONE. And that one is YOU.)" ?"Short version: It's God's order, and you are a particular manifestation of God.
Expanded version: The Great Order is a unified Collective Mind of beings with various specific histories, qualities, and functions within that Mind."
Well he went on to say about realising that you are the Great Order:
"And this awakening will spark a fire that will burn like a million suns. That fire; that radiance is the light of the Hermit's lamp. And it will be 'all that you are'. It will be the only magical weapon you have or will need. That light will be all that you will be able to give to your brothers and sisters. Your only gift to those in the world who are still to awaken to their 'aloneness'. Your only true contribution to the life you are a part of.""
This doesn't seem to resonate with how you interpret it, but then again - do I really expect you to be able to understand what this hermit means by that? Do you really expect that you'll be able to understand what he really means by this?
He never mentioned God. He didn't talk of a 'unified collective mind' (which is a bunch of hooey). He said the Great Order is an order of ONE, and that One is YOU. This talk of God and 'unified collective minds' is an illusion that does something for you... it's more palatable (to you) than what he actually said."
God is such a loaded term, but I like it myself for many purposes. It is the fundamental unity and source of being, but by being so exalted in concept it also suggests separation. On different levels, we are separate, yet united. In that sense, we're all indeed Hermits, living apart from the home of our souls, but the light in our lamps is that part of the godhead which is both our secret soul and our guide to re-union with it. In this way all orders are orders of ONE even as they appear to walk as many.
In the night, it would appear that there countless twinkling lanterns, but the Light is One. Next to it, the shadow of the its bearer's form becomes indivisible from the darkness around us.
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I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts? -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Archaeus said
"I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts?"When you tried alone, did you sign the Oath by yourself? Or worked without the Oath?
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Archaeus said
"I tried doing it without joining the Order years ago, and had no results or Ordeals to speak of.
Interstingly enough I was getting both results and Ordeals by the bucketload within months of signing the Probationer Oath for real.
Maybe this has something to do with the level of sinscerity I brought to the Order compared to my solitary efforts?"When you tried alone, did you sign the Oath by yourself? Or worked without the Oath?
Love is the law, love under will."
Yeah, I did the whole thing, but to be honest it felt phoney, I knew early on that I needed to find the Actual AA, that took me about 15 years. (That was back in the days before internet made finding a contact relatively easy. Now the great difficulty is getting a reply as most AA lineages are flooded with letters requesting admission, its like applying for a sought after job.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this A∴A∴ subject.
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Ethar said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hmm, interesting. I don't know, I see the Oath signing as a big, big, big deal, even without the presence of a physical initiate. Claiming to be in it and all. Success is thy proof, after all.
I love this A∴A∴ subject.
Love is the law, love under will."
True, success is your proof, I just found that form my own success, actual initiation into a branch of the actual AA was the necessary catalyst.
Others may disagree, which is fine, due to the difficulty of finding a genuine connection it might well be easier to do it yourself.
Besides, there are many other ways up the mountain, I certainly don't think that the AA (man made) has the monopoly on spiritual attainment.
For me though, the other option was to join a Zen monastery, but then I like the whole getting up early to meditate thing.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"True, success is your proof, I just found that form my own success, actual initiation into a branch of the actual AA was the necessary catalyst."
This. Everyone is different. Also, views on what is "actual A∴A∴" may differ.
"Others may disagree, which is fine, due to the difficulty of finding a genuine connection it might well be easier to do it yourself."
My case is a bit complex, but I don't feel like going into details right now. Sometime in the future I shall explain it all.
"Besides, there are many other ways up the mountain, I certainly don't think that the AA (man made) has the monopoly on spiritual attainment."
No one can disagree. But it certainly is awesome.
"For me though, the other option was to join a Zen monastery, but then I like the whole getting up early to meditate thing."
lol
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Frater Potater said
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I can dig this. But only because I understand the context of what you mean. Someone who has no idea what Thelema is, or has no intuition to perceive this, would not have the slightest idea of what you mean. How would you explain this to them, or to an atheist?
"The Ineffable Mystery of Life
@Frater Potater said
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And it's equally true that most new agers/occultists are Juedeo-Christian-Islamist in a fancy new dress."The average shall remain average.
What is considered 'occult' is not really so these days with the proliferation of the internet.@Frater Potater said
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Excellent. I will agree and add that the best service one can do for themselves, and for the universe, is to simply seek out and do their will. A person can be supported by others in this, and pushed along gently like a boat in water, but no one can dictate this to another person or tell them how to fulfill the task."Exactly!
Going from what I wrote before: If you want to know what kind of Work you are going to be doing in any Order you can easily get an idea with a bit of searching.
What is most important is the fruit, the people involved.An interesting notion that was brought up in Jims talk the other day is this:
An Order can be very much like a family...
You can use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo, having a 'comfortable place to fit.'
There is the other option of using it as a forum of self-exploration and growth.
Of having people around you, going through the same process.
Open to the idea that you are evolving and providing you a place to test out and create new habits.
Going with my loner example...
An Order, or really, any Group working together provides a relatively safe place to learn about expressing ones own individuality while at the same time integrating into a group.In the end the usefulness of any tool is dependent on how the Magician chooses to utilize it.
@Frater Potater said
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It's such a pretty song.
"So keep on dancing!
Ever unafraid,
That the rocks betray
And in Death are thou unmade
Verily!
Thou shalt LIVE
And though you may have the Face of another
Thou art still my Brother -
Well, why is it that joining an official order brings this on, but not a solitary practitioner? I don't want people to act like this is all mystical or magical with some mysterious "universe speaking to you" reasons when this is rather obvious to the mundane.
According to the siren, it is perceived, that it is implied that the student will, sooner or later, sleep with his or her guru, and by that, I do not mean innocent lying next to each other in a tent, oh no, I mean in the more commonly used sexual manner. Now, this would be true regardless of the gender of the initiated, and his or her initiator.
Now, according to the siren, this so called guru is merely a mundane man or woman, but one who has slept around and collected several students, so thus has a high likely hood of transmitting something other than so called linage, rather diseases that are commonly passed from person to person by this methodology.
Who wants an STD? Well, not a siren, they remain pure and unsullied by mortal sin, and thus will abandon the aspirant.