Advice on ordeals
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@Uni_Verse said
"The most important thing, I feel is that no matter what you do, in the end YOU have to do something.
Whether magical, mystical or mundane it still requires action on your part.In my experience, when we start getting distraught, it is the result of a resistance to accepting how things are,
Or how we perceive they are going to play out.
While the view may be accurate, how we have arranged things in your minds, according to an ideal, may notWhile Magick and our practices can work as a floatation device, keeping our heads above water, our feet moving forward, I feel it is an error to turn those energies against the forces we perceive are lined up against us.
As, in some respect those walls have been either built, revealed or arranged by those practices and the guidance of our HGA to provide opportunities for growth (by revelation of the True Will).
Now, it may seem counter-intuitive: that I say "this was created by magick" while also saying "it should not be handled with magick." Though I mean the latter only in a direct sense.
This situation set up by the HGA also means the HGA is aware of the circumstances as well as holding an expectation of how one might resolve this ordeal.
So, while appealing to the forum may illicit a round-a-bout reply from your HGA, the best action may be to ask for direct guidance.
Whether by Tarot, I-Ching or some other method of more direct contact that you have been made aware of.
The first step, in any magick operation being "To Know."Much of what I said may be simple, even amateurish: though it seems often those are the things we first loose sight of when some great problem suddenly looms over us, casting shadows that block out the Sun.
Anyway, I hope you are doing better
"93 Uni
Thank you very much for your insight, honestly I truly appreciate it, and this forum. I think its very important to be able to reach out to others of a like mind - not to have them "solve" your problems, but to get feedback that we as magicians can relate to.
I know ordeals, problems etc are there for a reason, that they help us grow, but my problem (maybe has always been) how to constructively "use" them, how to decipher what it is I'm suupose to do, or how I am suppose to react to them. Maybe I'm not able to articulate it, but to "know" (as you point out) what direction I should shoot for.
I am TERRIBLE at divination! Lol, ill admit I'm not good at consulting anything from astrology to Ti Chung, so that is another problem. So, often I endure these trials simply best I can, doing what I feel is "just" or "responsible" etc and hope for the best, and try to see a "lesson" in it (which is almost always related to some lack of responsibility actually), however often times at the time it is an act I felt I had to do. For example neglect one bill to pay another, or deal with the most urgent problem first etc. Money has always been my nemysis.
Jim, of course makes a great point, that these are MY problems I have worked hard to create, my own self made challenges that mirror back at me my own weaknesses, gold in terms of cresting change, IF understood. I just don't understand lol, I mean ultimately what is at the heart of it.
But, today was a doozie, and I came out pretty good. I didn't lose my job, and court went well. So I'm still alive lol.
I cant express though my appreciation for yours and Jim's advice. Meant a lot so thank you.
I do need help with divination, bit that's another thread lol.
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@Q789 said
"JL Romeo, I am of the opinion that life is full of troubles- and you have to learn from them, learn to adapt to them- change yourself so you can adapt to life.
Look deep within yourself- find how you reacted to a situation- make improvements.Remember the alchemical axim
"Visit the interiors of the earth and through rectification thou shalt find the hidden stone"It means that you have to look deep and fix up the (****), circumspect. This is the true work in magick- to work with yourself. It is also the most overlooked.
You achieve adept-ship through working with yourself- and no other way. There is no short cut- no magical formula- no easy way out.
I identify your issues, weakness, shortfalls. You will often find them by assessing the 'way' you react to situations.
You will find that, over time, the empty space you leave behind when you 'change yourself'- is in fact the space of god and he/she has been with you all along- guiding you. The more potential a magickan has- the worst the ordeals.
Q"
93 Q,
So true, I understand this. I just seem to struggle with being able to resolve how to react properly I suppose. Also it seems almost strange at how these recent problems have just appeared and at an overwhelming pace and timing! It almost seems they purposefully occur lol, and in a way that cuts off all avenues of "escape". I literally fix one problem and immediately another pops up to damage the stability I gain! I almost feel it is an "attack", not just normal everyday problems, and this is the reason that has pushed my frustration to the breaking point. So, I feel maybe this is all connected to some one "point" I'm missing, but WHAT?
Anyway, again I appreciate your advice. Thank you very very much! Helps to try and see it spiritually after all this. I always try but becomes hard in the thick of it.
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J -
Romero- The above description you gave to typical of new initiates to the path. All their problems come to the surface and appear bigger than they have ever been. The real path is the inner struggle- you overcoming your personal issues.
I suggest a Basic primer of Carl Jung. This will assist you in understanding what is going on. Taking a path in magick is like 'asking for more', like evoking your deepest issues to the surface, like putting your bicycle in top gear, and of course there is no going back.
"So, I feel maybe this is all connected to some one "point" I'm missing, but WHAT?"- excellent question. The path you are embarking on may, if you succeed, take many years and is known to be the most difficult achievement of any human.
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Reminder : when we are under stress often times our basic needs get neglected.
During stressful times it is soooo very important to make sure you are taking care of yourself, eat as well as you can afford: fresh fruits and veggies, good quality proteins and fats, stay away from junk food and fast food, drink lots and lots of water and possibly relaxing teas, stimulants are usually not helpful now.Make sure you get plenty of fresh air, and if possible now, sunshine.....
Walk, excersize in some way to keep your lymphatic system moving along...Take pleasure in small things, through out your day, give heartfelt thanks for the simple pleasures you do have.
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@kasper81 said
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@J L Romer said
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@Uni_Verse said
"I do need help with divination, bit that's another thread lol.93 93/93
J"
"can i ask you a question? what's your magical background what magical work have you done and how often?"
93
Well, funny enough I have been introduced to magick starting with wicca at 6 or 7 by an old lady who lived.behind our apartment in downtown LA. What one could call a "cat lady". Just simple stuff, silly really, but basic candle magick and voo doo dolls lol. My mother just escaped then the vice of her fundamentalist mother and brother. I remember running into a picture of Crowley and asking her who that was, she said "a famous magician", I was fascinated. In my teenage yeats I started to study more, but again basic stuff, very new agey, mostly wicca and astral projection. It wasnt until much.later in my early twenties I discovered high magick and the Golden Dawn, joining for a spell an order in Fontana Ca. Thats when I truly started working, with LBRP and MP and Tarot symbology etc., but found again of course AC and Liber Al and fell instantly in love with Thelema, but hopelessly confused as well lol.
Then, life caught up with me; marriage, kids, divorce, you know the routine. Then career, sadly magick took a back seay, and I mostly read hete and there, no REAL practice. Recently I reformulated my desire to truly move forward with that secret passion, and I found and joined the A.'.A.'.. Yet, Im blocked, or idk what, the trials are kicking my a$$. So I do realize all your are saying, I get it, but seem to not know how to properly negotiate these. I push on, thats it. I know how to do a divination, but I seem to "fail" at it.
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@Veronica said
"Reminder : when we are under stress often times our basic needs get neglected.
During stressful times it is soooo very important to make sure you are taking care of yourself, eat as well as you can afford: fresh fruits and veggies, good quality proteins and fats, stay away from junk food and fast food, drink lots and lots of water and possibly relaxing teas, stimulants are usually not helpful now.
Mi
Make sure you get plenty of fresh air, and if possible now, sunshine.....
Walk, excersize in some way to keep your lymphatic system moving along...Take pleasure in small things, through out your day, give heartfelt thanks for the simple pleasures you do have."
93 Vero
Yes, actually your 100% right. I have been neglecting myself. Work then home. Stuffed inside, but writing lol. A trial at poetry, wrote this bout my days lately:
Virtues Fray
Surrounding battle thus I get
To arms thrust I, must not regret
My armor tattered from age of war
Tis growing bent from edges bore
This fighting upward to which I go
I know in heart my lessons grow
If my strength waiver not today
Then self I conquer in virtues fray93 93/93
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@J L Romer said
"Recently I reformulated my desire to truly move forward with that secret passion, and I found and joined the A.'.A.'.. Yet, Im blocked, or idk what, the trials are kicking my a$$."
Then I'm not confused. Have you consulted with your Superior on this? Have you gotten assistance? That, after all, is what they're there for, especially at the pre-Neophyte level.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@J L Romer said
"Recently I reformulated my desire to truly move forward with that secret passion, and I found and joined the A.'.A.'.. Yet, Im blocked, or idk what, the trials are kicking my a$$."Then I'm not confused. Have you consulted with your Superior on this? Have you gotten assistance? That, after all, is what they're there for, especially at the pre-Neophyte level."
At first, for a while no. I tried to endure myself, seeing them obviously as tests, and yet they became so severe it affected my work. I couldnt hold my asana, I couldnt meditate. I felt aqshamed, and failed to communicate the once a month with a report, letting myself get locked up, is the onky way to explain it. However, he wrote just couple days ago inquiring about my silence, and I fessed up. He hasnt replied yet.
So meanwhile, out of sheer dedperation and frustration I posted here for advice. I realize its a test and ordeal, but as silly as it may seem im at a loss at how to respond to these. It may sound obvious, but when your life is crumbling around you, doing your asana as a response seems impossible. Guess thats the point?
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@Q789 said
"Romero- The above description you gave to typical of new initiates to the path. All their problems come to the surface and appear bigger than they have ever been. The real path is the inner struggle- you overcoming your personal issues.
I suggest a Basic primer of Carl Jung. This will assist you in understanding what is going on. Taking a path in magick is like 'asking for more', like evoking your deepest issues to the surface, like putting your bicycle in top gear, and of course there is no going back.
"So, I feel maybe this is all connected to some one "point" I'm missing, but WHAT?"- excellent question. The path you are embarking on may, if you succeed, take many years and is known to be the most difficult achievement of any human."
Great post, think all this will help others as well. Im sure im not the first here, I tried to do a search on this topic but.lousy key words I guess cuz I couldnt find much. Anyway, yes, I know, but for example is the answer to dealing with a collection of overwhelming problems simply introspection and doing your spuritual daily dozen? How do we (besides enduring in magical work) handle all the problems themselves? I was enduring, doing the work, yet meanwhile my job was crumbling of 12 years! Love life, my house about to be lost due to drastic cut in hours, court over damn ticket had no money for, and the drive shaft of my car literally falling out in the street! So, is it tests of resolve and magically they resolve, or tests of my genius to find rent? You see?
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To only way to fail at Divination is not to try.
There are plenty of pits to fall into, sure
Such as assuming you are divining the future
Look for insights, not answers
As the first question, a few questions
To even find the question
That we might journey for an answerIt is also as anything else in magick:
You have to Work itI was recently handed a copy of Tarot for the New Aeon
A good book to introduce you to the Thoth tarot
As it provides a number of suggestions
And various arrangements
Before tackling Book of Thoth
While the definitive title, it is a heavy read
I feel it also assumes one has worked with the deck -
I'm not involved with any aspect of AA, besides practicing their rituals, however might I suggest meditating in a more "relaxed" position than your asana, (say indian-style on the floor,) for about twenty minutes or more, just to clear your head, focus on your breathing, and stilling that turbulent water that seems more "there" when in a proper asana? Then after that time, try your asana per usual.
One thing to remember, dear Frater, is that we are all entangled in some sort of illusion that makes reality what it is, as well as forms the tree of life. Realizing that all these trials you go through are just illusion, I believe, might be your underlying goal.
Have you ever been in asana, and for the obvious reasons, find yourself in a great deal of pain? Perhaps you were in proper dhyana before some intrusive thoughts entered your mind, and the pain broke through the light. Then, you remember that your body, including the pain, is an illusion, then the turbulence dissipates quickly and the Light returns. It seems you are going through a more extended version of this in real life. The best thing one might do in this situation is "let go", and as Jim said, find your true goal within you, your True Will.
This might be easier if you remember, that all these practices, are there for you to work "in reverse", as Crowley states, "To await Thee was the end, not the beginning." This brings to mind working without lust of result. Not just a catchy phrase to live by, but something to remember in your darkest hours. One never knows when that blackness pervading their consciousness is just some unbalanced lust, maybe even for the work and the goals of the work itself, that one must learn to slide right away from.
Just my 93 cents, and good luck and Life to you, Frater. Never ignore your True Will, your Angel will guide you.
Frank
93
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Romeo, There comes certain times in life when you have to make moves. You have to make the changes yourself.
WHen the going gets tuff- the tuff get going. and now is your time buddy.This mate is a test of you character. Take inventory of what you have- what you want and get the guts together to make the change yourself.- DONT' SIT ON YOUR A***** AND WAIT DO IT NOW
Sometimes, gods throws several pieces of s***t your way- at the same time.
I personally had it 18 months ago.
Veronica give very good advice. Now plead loyalty to that which is closest to your heart- HGA - stick to your guns and make the change. Ask your higher power for help. Yes now is time to consult the cards. The only thing that needs to remain is your relationship with HGA- all else may be stripped away. From my experience Daath does this- stripes all unnecessary stuff away.
Keep in mind that joining AA will cause much energy to raise up from the subconscious and this is very likely to be your test. There is no turning back
Now stick to your guns, ask HGA for help, give him/her authority as a higher power.'The only constant is change' - now is your time.
From the sounds of it, there are worst initiations. I personally have had 2 breakdowns in my life- this does not sounds like the case with you.
I can promise you that one day you will look back at this in wisdom and realize what it is all about- changing you on a higher level.Now take the gloves off mate, call for help from that dark inner voice that you spoke to as a child, listen to the darkness, listen to the silence- and do whatever is necessary.
oh and we are here if you need us.
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@Uni_Verse said
"To only way to fail at Divination is not to try.
There are plenty of pits to fall into, sure
Such as assuming you are divining the future
Look for insights, not answers
As the first question, a few questions
To even find the question
That we might journey for an answerIt is also as anything else in magick:
You have to Work itI was recently handed a copy of Tarot for the New Aeon
A good book to introduce you to the Thoth tarot
As it provides a number of suggestions
And various arrangements
Before tackling Book of Thoth
While the definitive title, it is a heavy read
I feel it also assumes one has worked with the deck"Yes, true. I do need to devote more effort developing skill at it. When I say fail, I mean that I seem to not be able to divorce myself from the answer, that usually by the time I am pulling out the cards to perform a divination, im already too emotionally inbesyed to be neutral. Which highlights a weakness, that of not lusting for results. Plus, the results seem to always be negative, and simply worry me more. Im a worrier lol, maybe because of my job seeing tragedy constantly, but there is another thing, a hint at my battle with fear. I think ive had that too throughout my life, a lot of fear. Yet its ironic because im not a fearful or timid person really, its more deep and internal, which maybe is worse. Anyway, I get what your saying, and I have read the Book of Thoth many many times over years, and yet STILL get confused lol, or find new things. I usually study the cards as.a meditative tool, regardong magick etc., less as it pertains to actual advice on existing circumstances. That, im weak at, finding those insights as they would apply to events occuring I guess. If im making sense lol.
Thank you for helping me. Advice on all this really does seem to help "deal" with it. Lots of pressure, and future uncertain because I know what it seems to be leading to as a logical result, and im fighting it! Fighting it as a "man" would, unenlightened, but here, with you spiritual minded, it helps to see it differently,pulling me back from the crude clay image and spiritualizing it all, reminding me of its purpose.
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@Q789 said
"Romeo, There comes certain times in life when you have to make moves. You have to make the changes yourself.
WHen the going gets tuff- the tuff get going. and now is your time buddy.This mate is a test of you character. Take inventory of what you have- what you want and get the guts together to make the change yourself.- DONT' SIT ON YOUR A***** AND WAIT DO IT NOW
Sometimes, gods throws several pieces of s***t your way- at the same time.
I personally had it 18 months ago.
Veronica give very good advice. Now plead loyalty to that which is closest to your heart- HGA - stick to your guns and make the change. Ask your higher power for help. Yes now is time to consult the cards. The only thing that needs to remain is your relationship with HGA- all else may be stripped away. From my experience Daath does this- stripes all unnecessary stuff away.
Keep in mind that joining AA will cause much energy to raise up from the subconscious and this is very likely to be your test. There is no turning back
Now stick to your guns, ask HGA for help, give him/her authority as a higher power.'The only constant is change' - now is your time.
From the sounds of it, there are worst initiations. I personally have had 2 breakdowns in my life- this does not sounds like the case with you.
I can promise you that one day you will look back at this in wisdom and realize what it is all about- changing you on a higher level.Now take the gloves off mate, call for help from that dark inner voice that you spoke to as a child, listen to the darkness, listen to the silence- and do whatever is necessary.
oh and we are here if you need us."
Yes, you have inspiring words thank you very much Q! I guess im Rocky getting a beating and now I have to get up off the mat and kick some tail lol. Your right though, and inside I "get that" , I get inspired and fight back determined, then idk I lose wind in my sails, and the fear of what I feel will happen freezes me up, I seem to simply not.know what to do. Embarrassing but true, I guess it presses me up against my own limits forcing me to overcome those shortcomings and face those fears, being completely alone, broke, on the street. I was wredtling with myself last night trying to to better articulate what it was I am actually trying to ask here. Its subtle, because on the surface it seems maybe im asking for a solution, but im actually trying to ask for a course of definite action, or a method of dealing with problems in general. Am I to "fight" by dealing with problems best I can as usual and endure in magical work? Or am I to analyse and change myself as these problems highlight?
You seem to be sayong, if I understand you correctly, to give ones self up to the HGA, allow without fear these changes as frightening as they may seem, to strip away all. To stay the course no matter what, and do the work. Yet, I have to ask then how if im literally on the street? I mean, it seems I could get there, but maybe im seeing a conclusion im fearing idk. Ive never been closer to a breakdown as now, I tell you. Its hefty, and not easy.
Just want to extend my gratitude again,to you and all here for your advice and Jim for this forum, its truly a comfort to read and intetact with like minded people. Really does help just something that simple at times. I guess I just have to cowboy up lol.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I'm not involved with any aspect of AA, besides practicing their rituals, however might I suggest meditating in a more "relaxed" position than your asana, (say indian-style on the floor,) for about twenty minutes or more, just to clear your head, focus on your breathing, and stilling that turbulent water that seems more "there" when in a proper asana? Then after that time, try your asana per usual.
One thing to remember, dear Frater, is that we are all entangled in some sort of illusion that makes reality what it is, as well as forms the tree of life. Realizing that all these trials you go through are just illusion, I believe, might be your underlying goal.
Have you ever been in asana, and for the obvious reasons, find yourself in a great deal of pain? Perhaps you were in proper dhyana before some intrusive thoughts entered your mind, and the pain broke through the light. Then, you remember that your body, including the pain, is an illusion, then the turbulence dissipates quickly and the Light returns. It seems you are going through a more extended version of this in real life. The best thing one might do in this situation is "let go", and as Jim said, find your true goal within you, your True Will.
This might be easier if you remember, that all these practices, are there for you to work "in reverse", as Crowley states, "To await Thee was the end, not the beginning." This brings to mind working without lust of result. Not just a catchy phrase to live by, but something to remember in your darkest hours. One never knows when that blackness pervading their consciousness is just some unbalanced lust, maybe even for the work and the goals of the work itself, that one must learn to slide right away from.
Just my 93 cents, and good luck and Life to you, Frater. Never ignore your True Will, your Angel will guide you.
Frank
93
93/93"Wish I knew how to only quote parts as many of you do, im still not sure how to do a lot of that lol. I have to quote whole thing so you know im replying to you, but there were specific areas I wish I could easily answer. I wanted to know more about the "working in teverse" idea, not sure I ever read that, or understand it, coukd you elaborate on that?
As for Asana, I use the Dragon posture, and pain isnt the issue, its more of a lack of will to persisy, just a type of refusal of my power to continue to stay still, and or concentrate. Stuff I have "mastered" (to use the term lightly). I get into it, and am overwhelmed with stress, or flashong images of fears, and I pop out of it. Its as if when in mediation these worries are magnified, and I feel I shouldnt be sitting there but doing something. So I ebd up not.meditating, but not doing anything anyway, lol so frustrating. Dont feel myself. I guess I asked for this deciding to join the AA, and so there I go. Im not asking for these to "go away" but im at a loss how to "do" them, if that makes any damn sense! Angry I cant form into words what i mean its strange! But, like I said, doing a ritual to get money or find a better job seems to be cheating (for lack if better word) what obviously these tests are meant to do. Im guessong to simply deal with them best I can, and face them, meanwhile strain to persist in working is the answer. But, I feel my work is halfass when forced.
I want to follow my True Will, but dont we onky realize that once we obtain K&C? I can only guess what my TW is! What do I fight to keep in my life, and what do I allow to be stripped away? Figuratovely, im seeing from this advice, im to give.myself up to my HGA, akin to blind faith its all going to be OK, for a reason. That I guess is hard for me, I feel out of control of my life. I feel also im hurting others in my life. My daughter just had a baby, and needs my help, and im failing to help myself! What if I fail even this??
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Just as the Master Therion formulated the word of Double Power, so the "thinking in reverse" also comes to another "thinking in reverse." Therefore, the first part could easily be defining your goals in the future, while the next reverse is just "being" your goal. To realize you will become what you Will to be, making yourself an example for yourself.
I also chose the Dragon posture years ago, and have not strayed from it much, besides simple indian-style postures, but I've tried all the major ones. The dragon called me, I think from the picture I saw in the Equinox, and I tried it until the major pain went away. To tell you the truth, brother, I have also been having a little difficulty in maintaining my position for longer periods of time. This may have to do with my caffeine consumption... if you consume or have a moderate amount of caffeine in your bloodstream during meditation, the aches in the neck and back that used to disappear makes one want to move around, shift, etc.. You may wish to consider lowering your caffeine intake, as this will diminish thought-loops that can trap one during uneasy meditation.
Instead of having my Yerba directly before meditation, (just started drinking yerba again,) I have it much earlier, and I can hold a position for an hour easily in the Dragon, whereas if I had an abundance of caffeine in my system, I would have struggled to hold thirty minutes.
Huzzah and cheers on your new granddaughter. I'm sure you will do fine:
One must remember that every thought one has interacts with the universe and others around them. The more quiet one's thought are, the less one pays attention to them, another process of working in reverse, and your subconsciousness awakens slowly and secretly into your conscious world.
It's like seeing music. I don't know if you've ever tried any visionaries, but when one begins to experience a synesthesia of senses, music becomes something to behold, not just something to be heard. It takes on three-dimensional qualities of dimension and color. One begins to see into the thoughts of the composer.
When one see things only for what they're "supposed" to be seen for, one can not progress to the truer consciousness of energy, matter, and space. But we must remember that all matter is condensed energy, and space is simply energy in wait. So what you're left with is your very vital force that causes your heart to beat. Feel it, brother. Let go of all this worry.
I must say, ritual Magick has always helped me. When one purifies one's self or place or life, one begins an eternal dance of keeping up with divinity against the darkness. If you've practiced the pentagram ritual successfully in a past life, you are bound to do it more and more later on. It is our duty.
Not only has it caused me great health and spiritual hygeine, but the pentagram rituals alone kept me out of bad places, years ago. Got into some trouble, practiced the pentagram rituals successfully, went before the judge, and I went home.
Now when you practices these rituals, one must remember to work without lust of result. It sounds like you might be getting a couple of your reverse-thought gears tangled up, and you worry well before it is time to, or even if there is no need to worry. I used to do this a lot. As Satan-Typhon offered Lady Apophis in the rites of Sol, "Silence and Stillness", will be your first successful change. Even when one is tracing pentagrams, one hears that hum of energy and charges it with their own divine power, there is that perfect silence and stillness behind it all.
Take it easy, brother.
Frank
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