Evocation & bystanders ?
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I would like to respond to the question regards the Choronzon issue. I didn't realize that AC spoke of this concern.
Our universe, could be seen as a sphere, a hollow sphere of web. A web of light, similar to the 'Vision of Nana' topic I started. We, obviously, live n the inside of this web. This sphere is, at the moment, sealed. Cept to say for those who have the skills to open up that web and do the work of high magick.
A long long time ago, this sphere had a gateway in it. Through which other races and beings could freely enter our spaces. Legend has it that it was seen as a serpent, rainbow serpent, or dragon. This, 'channel' or 'Gateway' connected planet earth with the other universes for aeons of time.
Personally, I beleive(rather know) it was a Einstein-Rosenbridge wormhole machine.
The statement that Chorozon is in our universe per se', in my opinion, is in correct- however, it is not just my opinion, but ACs and more, that they are gathering in preparation to enter our spaces and the return of the gateway is imminent.A major concern of those who are aware of this- is that the web will split and these energies will enter our spaces ahead of time. This may be ACs concern.
Q
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@J L Romer said
"It sounds like a dangerous operation then with others around. How would one know if everything was sealed properly? Besides of course well connected circle and triangle, is there a way to know if it was properly sealed?"
I consider evocation to be a very advanced undertaking. I know others disagree - and consider it to be more entry level. I don't think so at all. - For one thing, IMO you need first to be perfectly comfortable and able moving about the astral and seeing with your astral senses. With this capacity, you can actually watch what is happening - you can see it (or whatever sense you use best to map your inward discernment). Considerable long-term experience in other magical practice will give you an instinct to notice the moment there is any breach.
"Also, if one did make a mistake and the entity escapes what then? Can this entity last long outside the triangle etc? Would it lurk about town? Could the magician stay in the circle and still banish or have to give chase lol"
In most cases, nothing more than malicious mischief happens - minor spooking, low grade discomfort or dread, minor poltergeist happenings such as wine glasses falling off a countertop or doors slamming - or even less. Rarely worse than a backed up toilet. - In practice, you might be able to command the spirit back from where you stand, and in any case you can banish and generally cleanse the other areas. (I speak mostly in theory on the last sentence because I've never had one escape. You have to be attentive to the matter, but it's not hard if you're trained and prepared. But yes, a banishing in the next room and burning some sage or high-vibe resinous incense usually will make the space intolerable for any low-vibration manifestation.)
"I'm not home with access to V&V, but it was a passage worded something like "should he escape and be loosened into the universe" or something along those lines."
Ah, I think the passage you are meaning is:
@V&V 10th Aethyr said
"Now, then, the Seer being entered within the triangle, let him take the Victims and cut their throats, pouring the blood within the Triangle, and being most heedful that not one drop fall without the Triangle; or else Choronzon should be able to manifest in the universe."
That would be a nasty magical link - but only likely to have repercussions on the two people involved. (One reason for doing this is a very isolated, remote area was so that no one else was around.)
Understand that Choronzon is already loose in the world - he is infecting most people most of the time. The danger in this type of work is that a single being or consciousness-matrix, such as this, might obsess the psyche. The main advantage of this care is to concentrate the manifestation into a manageable context. (I'm sure Crowley didn't want to walk away obssessed by Choronzon, but to have the contained, particular operation and then release the embodiment.)
"Not sure was relating to Neuberg in particular with dagger (BTW I read it was a staff?)."
The instructions read: "And let him be furnished with the Magick Dagger, and let him strike fearlessly at anything that may seek to break through the circle, were it the appearance of the Seer himself." The word "staff" does not appear anywhere in the transcription of the vision.
"My question is, if some wreckless magician somewhere copied AC and evoked Chronozon, and he did escape, what would happen?"
Such a magician probably wouldn't accomplish anything; or, if they did, then it would likely only be their own obsession.
It would take enormous magical capacity to serve as the avatar of Choronzon in the manifest world (beyond the sense in which Choronzon, "The Great Demon BECAUSE," saturates ordinary life anyway).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
In most cases, nothing more than malicious mischief happens - minor spooking, low grade discomfort or dread, minor poltergeist happenings such as wine glasses falling off a countertop or doors slamming - or even less. Rarely worse than a backed up toilet. "I know a girl who in his teenage years did the typical ouija evocation, playing in a break in his institute classroom and all that, with the result of a poltergeist movement in the room, things that fall and so on, and the final crashing of the door crystal, which damaged slightly the participants. Of the three girls, one had a psychotic reaction consequence of this and needed posterior psychiatric treatment and so on, the other becomes tarotist (lol), and my friend simply ignored the thing.
But apart from that, she was close witness of four different gore car accidents, in his childhood years too. People flying in pieces on the air, as it seems. She always passed away impassibly. No psycological therapy needed, no aparent trauma, no nothing. Cold as ice. She is obviusly crazy, but I think it´s inherent of herself. The thing is one can´t have a walk on the street with her without being watching carefully the traffic all the time, knowing that information. Ok sorry for the rambling.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
@J L Romer said
"It sounds like a dangerous operation then with others around. How would one know if everything was sealed properly? Besides of course well connected circle and triangle, is there a way to know if it was properly sealed?"I consider evocation to be a very advanced undertaking. I know others disagree - and consider it to be more entry level. I don't think so at all. - For one thing, IMO you need first to be perfectly comfortable and able moving about the astral and seeing with your astral senses. With this capacity, you can actually watch what is happening - you can see it (or whatever sense you use best to map your inward discernment). Considerable long-term experience in other magical practice will give you an instinct to notice the moment there is any breach.
"Also, if one did make a mistake and the entity escapes what then? Can this entity last long outside the triangle etc? Would it lurk about town? Could the magician stay in the circle and still banish or have to give chase lol"
In most cases, nothing more than malicious mischief happens - minor spooking, low grade discomfort or dread, minor poltergeist happenings such as wine glasses falling off a countertop or doors slamming - or even less. Rarely worse than a backed up toilet. - In practice, you might be able to command the spirit back from where you stand, and in any case you can banish and generally cleanse the other areas. (I speak mostly in theory on the last sentence because I've never had one escape. You have to be attentive to the matter, but it's not hard if you're trained and prepared. But yes, a banishing in the next room and burning some sage or high-vibe resinous incense usually will make the space intolerable for any low-vibration manifestation.)
"I'm not home with access to V&V, but it was a passage worded something like "should he escape and be loosened into the universe" or something along those lines."
Ah, I think the passage you are meaning is:
@V&V 10th Aethyr said
"Now, then, the Seer being entered within the triangle, let him take the Victims and cut their throats, pouring the blood within the Triangle, and being most heedful that not one drop fall without the Triangle; or else Choronzon should be able to manifest in the universe."
That would be a nasty magical link - but only likely to have repercussions on the two people involved. (One reason for doing this is a very isolated, remote area was so that no one else was around.)
Understand that Choronzon is already loose in the world - he is infecting most people most of the time. The danger in this type of work is that a single being or consciousness-matrix, such as this, might obsess the psyche. The main advantage of this care is to concentrate the manifestation into a manageable context. (I'm sure Crowley didn't want to walk away obssessed by Choronzon, but to have the contained, particular operation and then release the embodiment.)
"Not sure was relating to Neuberg in particular with dagger (BTW I read it was a staff?)."
The instructions read: "And let him be furnished with the Magick Dagger, and let him strike fearlessly at anything that may seek to break through the circle, were it the appearance of the Seer himself." The word "staff" does not appear anywhere in the transcription of the vision.
"My question is, if some wreckless magician somewhere copied AC and evoked Chronozon, and he did escape, what would happen?"
Such a magician probably wouldn't accomplish anything; or, if they did, then it would likely only be their own obsession.
It would take enormous magical capacity to serve as the avatar of Choronzon in the manifest world (beyond the sense in which Choronzon, "The Great Demon BECAUSE," saturates ordinary life anyway)."
Thank you Jim!
I thought however that if the magician were to 'even lean out of the circle' he could be torn apart. Is that just hyperbole? I always assumed these beings could attack our higher bodies (I.e. astral, etheric etc.) These subtle non physical attacks resulting in disease or actual wounds on the body. That just not true?
As for the "staff" I was referring to the part of the vision where it says "(The Scribe had written two or three words of "Tom o' Bedlam, " when Chronozon sprang within the circle [that part of the circumference of which that was nearest to him he had been filling up with sand all this time] and leaped upon the Scribe, throwing him to the earth. The conflict took place within the circle. The Scribe called upon Tetragrammaton, and succeeded in compelling Choronzon to return into his triangle. By dint of anger and of threatening him with the Magick Staff did he accomplish this."
I assumed it would be the dagger, but here he uses a staff?
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J -
JL, now I remember. Possibly there was more than one implement in the circle. OTOH I've often thought that threat began with, uh, unbuttoning his pants.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"JL, now I remember. Possibly there was more than one implement in the circle. OTOH I've often thought that threat began with, uh, unbuttoning his pants."
Lol yeah true, and maybe that "seductive maiden" was Crowley in fishnets! Heard things got lil funky lol.
93 93/93
J -
@Pattana Gita said
"There was poltergeist activity in the old spuggy house in Gateshead decades after they had abandoned it, but it seemed confined to the house.
The house was quite damp and the walls had to be sealed and then redressed with plaster boards. In theory, there had to be a physical substance capable of sustaining consciousness, but that's not hard with all the microbes and spores living in any house. It might be interesting to see if evocation is possible in a high level clean room environment."
Hmm never considered magick such as evocation influenced by environmental factors. Well, at least not in particulars such as microbes etc. Then again "factors infinite and unknown."
I always thought a "ghost hunt" in a totally constructed "set" complete with false haunting history would be interesting as a experiment. Would phenomena manifest accordngly?
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J -
@SmokingMonkey said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"
In most cases, nothing more than malicious mischief happens - minor spooking, low grade discomfort or dread, minor poltergeist happenings such as wine glasses falling off a countertop or doors slamming - or even less. Rarely worse than a backed up toilet. "I know a girl who in his teenage years did the typical ouija evocation, playing in a break in his institute classroom and all that, with the result of a poltergeist movement in the room, things that fall and so on, and the final crashing of the door crystal, which damaged slightly the participants. Of the three girls, one had a psychotic reaction consequence of this and needed posterior psychiatric treatment and so on, the other becomes tarotist (lol), and my friend simply ignored the thing.
But apart from that, she was close witness of four different gore car accidents, in his childhood years too. People flying in pieces on the air, as it seems. She always passed away impassibly. No psycological therapy needed, no aparent trauma, no nothing. Cold as ice. She is obviusly crazy, but I think it´s inherent of herself. The thing is one can´t have a walk on the street with her without being watching carefully the traffic all the time, knowing that information. Ok sorry for the rambling."
I was never good at Quija lol. Of course later with bit more knowledge I left those types of "games" alone. Yet, I wonder if any magician could use say a Quija board with proper banishings/invocations etc?
Anyway thank you for sharing, its interesting. I've heard similar stories about using the Quija.
93 93/93
J -
@Q789 said
"I would like to respond to the question regards the Choronzon issue. I didn't realize that AC spoke of this concern.
Our universe, could be seen as a sphere, a hollow sphere of web. A web of light, similar to the 'Vision of Nana' topic I started. We, obviously, live n the inside of this web. This sphere is, at the moment, sealed. Cept to say for those who have the skills to open up that web and do the work of high magick.
A long long time ago, this sphere had a gateway in it. Through which other races and beings could freely enter our spaces. Legend has it that it was seen as a serpent, rainbow serpent, or dragon. This, 'channel' or 'Gateway' connected planet earth with the other universes for aeons of time.
Personally, I beleive(rather know) it was a Einstein-Rosenbridge wormhole machine.
The statement that Chorozon is in our universe per se', in my opinion, is in correct- however, it is not just my opinion, but ACs and more, that they are gathering in preparation to enter our spaces and the return of the gateway is imminent.A major concern of those who are aware of this- is that the web will split and these energies will enter our spaces ahead of time. This may be ACs concern.
Q"
This reminds me of the Ancient alien theme. I used to buy it all, not so sure now. For anyone facinated by the popular TV series I highly recommend seeing "Ancient Aliens Debunked" on YouTube.
Are you saying Choronzon is actually a interdemensional being or beings? Alien? Not sure I follow you. Interesting though, but woukdnt that totally be outside of our mystical theory?
93 93/93
J -
I am watching your U-tue video. I am very disappointed in Van Danikan, exaggerating information about Puma Punku. At the moment the man is debunking theories that the pyramids where built by aliens- when it is known they where built by man. They had long gone. I have been studying this for 30 years and in order to totally debunk the theory would be impossible. There simply is too much evidence.
I do beleive I have mentioned. on this forum, a past life memory i have of this. For many years i denied this - however, i have learned not to. The memory is very frightening and terribly real. I have also learned to trust your intuition, trust your visions- trust yourself.
Yes Choronzon is ET and extra dimensional. I think you will find that dealing with such energies is high magick, is the object of ACs most helpful work.
No i do not think it is outside our mystical theory- I think that our entire system is geared to dealing with these dangerous and important energies. They are essential to the Great Work and to the evolution of man.
Q
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@Q789 said
"I am watching your U-tue video. I am very disappointed in Van Danikan, exaggerating information about Puma Punku. At the moment the man is debunking theories that the pyramids where built by aliens- when it is known they where built by man. They had long gone. I have been studying this for 30 years and in order to totally debunk the theory would be impossible. There simply is too much evidence.
I do beleive I have mentioned. on this forum, a past life memory i have of this. For many years i denied this - however, i have learned not to. The memory is very frightening and terribly real. I have also learned to trust your intuition, trust your visions- trust yourself.
Yes Choronzon is ET and extra dimensional. I think you will find that dealing with such energies is high magick, is the object of ACs most helpful work.
No i do not think it is outside our mystical theory- I think that our entire system is geared to dealing with these dangerous and important energies. They are essential to the Great Work and to the evolution of man.
Q"
Ha I feel you on the disappointment, and that's with MANY of thosr producing that show riddled with exaggerated claims and out right lies. I'm not saying I don't belive in Aliens per se, but its made me a lot more skeptical of what the "facts" are. As for the pyramids, I know, but keep watching! There's lot strong evidence.
Anyway, it seems your saying Choronzon is a definite bodied being, an individual whereas I think he's more of a state? Or should I say rather he's a force. Dispersion, confusion, the plague of reason taken to the extreme. He is housed in the Abyss there with Da ath which is of course Knowledge, and so effects (as Jim points out too) all of us most of the time.
I'm not saying there could not be some form of inter dimensional beings or what not, just not buyng its Choronzon.
Id like to hear your memory though! I'm always interested in that sort of stuff.
93 93/93
J -
I watched, or rather listened, to the first 1 hr movie of 'Aliens debunked'. I have a Technical report to write for uni at the same time. I am disappointed at some of the claims and lies some of these writes make. However, all this first movie did was debunk a couple claims- they have a hell of alot of debunking to do before they disprove the theory. There is simply way too much evidence. Having said that- these people have done good work in exposing a non scientific method. PS Stitchen/Henry are profiteering dramatists seeking book sales.
No i don't think Choronzon is a definite being. But rather the effects that Daath has on the soul/psyche. I have never had any visionary contact with this being as i have with others. I feel it is rather a 'function' between our universe and the 'outer' universe. Dispersion ?yes. This is what happens when you act as a gateway between this universe and that what lies outside.
Only light can trans-pass, all else falls, only true will can cross- as light as a feather- this is the nature of him.
I am a terrible drawing artists- so please bare with me. This is my main memory. I have had it since a child. I draw it in my dairy long before i read Grant, Crowley, internet or even alien research. It is a most terrifying memory, the atmosphere shakes, violently vibrates as this Draconian speedily comes up from 'a watery abyss' on his plateform (Ark?). These people are doing trans cosmic, transplutonian teleportation magick. This occurred on planet earth, we as humans where very young- immature. It is the 'sound magick' or vibration that is most frightening. It shatters the atmosphere.
1342.beta.photobucket.com/user/Peter789123/media/Draconian_zps6af34641.jpg.html
In my age now i realize that this is Einsteinian/Rosenbridge Quantum physics. We are not far away.
It has taken me most of my life to come to terms with this memory. These people are the 'reptilians' or Draconian s'. They once had this planet linked up with such technology- but now they do not. You will find plenty of stories statues and more of these people in tribal legends and Sumerian myths.
This is an example of why i say to initiates- trust your self.
Q
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Ironically, I find this very kind of conspirational thinking a very choronzonic thing, indeed. Choronzon and Daath and all related are enough explained along this thread, and in a lot of other places. Yep, they have a strange and misterious reputation, but that´s because that is part of their nature, part of the misterious and indescifrable nature of THIS world, not another.
The thing with conpirational theories is that obsession with adjust things, things that have no easy explanation, for to have a plain explanation here and now, and most of their followers call that "skepticism", HA. What you are doing is taking a good horror or mistery movie and reducing it to explanations, explanations, explanations. That way, you can´t FEEL what you have to feel with the movie. The same as life.
But don´t take it personally, I´m thinking about the average conspirational thinker. Though there are things in your post that reminds me that average thing.
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I don't think the word 'conspiracy' is the right one is it? We are simply drawing theories according to the evidence. Some, like me, are trying to piece together a history of the human race.
You don't have to answer this question on this board- but to yourself. But have you ever had a really powerful experience? I mean an experience that is NOT on the physical plane- but from Briah or above? You can't neither forget or deny them.
They are more powerful, overcoming, all absorbing, they come from a greater reality than this one. They have a certain shock on the pysche/nervous system, a certain twist (the mad one/fool). They will make you seriously question every day reality. Take for instance, a vision of your HGA, contact with the Ancients, G.O.O.s or perhaps my particular past life experience.When you have them they will give you an understanding of the universe and you should learn to except it as truth. This is the reason why I consider this subject truth- it is part of me- my will over a thousand lifetimes. I have learned from experience not to deny your experiences. bring it on as they say.
Whether it is a simple vision of a spirit, the HGA, an angel, or from the abyss and beyond- learn to trust yourself.
This is the reason i pursue this theory, not to mention the outstanding evidence. Don't get me wrong, if the evidence was strong against this theory then I would abandon it- but the evidence is most strong in favor.Q
PS BTW very well put and good manners too
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@Q789 said
"When you have them they will give you an understanding of the universe and you should learn to except it as truth."
I disagree. And remember, I'm the guy who takes an active stand against the narrowness of materialism, and who says that, ultimately, all we have to rely on is our own experience.
I disagre that you need to accept these things as truth. Rather, I think the key is to accept them unconditionally as relevant.
Trying to pin down what is true leads you into one kind of trouble if you believe yourself, and another if you don't! However, you can validate the legitimacy of your experience, and that the meaning you attach comes from yourself (and, therefore, is of yourself and expressive of yourself).
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@Q789 said
"I don't think the word 'conspiracy' is the right one is it? We are simply drawing theories according to the evidence. Some, like me, are trying to piece together a history of the human race.
You don't have to answer this question on this board- but to yourself. But have you ever had a really powerful experience? I mean an experience that is NOT on the physical plane- but from Briah or above? You can't neither forget or deny them.
They are more powerful, overcoming, all absorbing, they come from a greater reality than this one. They have a certain shock on the pysche/nervous system, a certain twist (the mad one/fool). They will make you seriously question every day reality. Take for instance, a vision of your HGA, contact with the Ancients, G.O.O.s or perhaps my particular past life experience.When you have them they will give you an understanding of the universe and you should learn to except it as truth. This is the reason why I consider this subject truth- it is part of me- my will over a thousand lifetimes. I have learned from experience not to deny your experiences. bring it on as they say.
Whether it is a simple vision of a spirit, the HGA, an angel, or from the abyss and beyond- learn to trust yourself.
This is the reason i pursue this theory, not to mention the outstanding evidence. Don't get me wrong, if the evidence was strong against this theory then I would abandon it- but the evidence is most strong in favor.Q
PS BTW very well put and good manners too"
The need for truth and for fabricate sense is a bitche. It will make you feel safe and special, when it´s just a defense mecanism for keep you in its claws. It´s better the ignorance, and more honest in my opinion. That experiences you relate have in itself it´s own language, learn then to understand it, but don´t try to translate it without knowing big thing about it, because them will only tell what your reason want to hear, in an eternal loop.
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@Q789 said
"I watched, or rather listened, to the first 1 hr movie of 'Aliens debunked'. I have a Technical report to write for uni at the same time. I am disappointed at some of the claims and lies some of these writes make. However, all this first movie did was debunk a couple claims- they have a hell of alot of debunking to do before they disprove the theory. There is simply way too much evidence. Having said that- these people have done good work in exposing a non scientific method. PS Stitchen/Henry are profiteering dramatists seeking book sales.
No i don't think Choronzon is a definite being. But rather the effects that Daath has on the soul/psyche. I have never had any visionary contact with this being as i have with others. I feel it is rather a 'function' between our universe and the 'outer' universe. Dispersion ?yes. This is what happens when you act as a gateway between this universe and that what lies outside.
Only light can trans-pass, all else falls, only true will can cross- as light as a feather- this is the nature of him.
I am a terrible drawing artists- so please bare with me. This is my main memory. I have had it since a child. I draw it in my dairy long before i read Grant, Crowley, internet or even alien research. It is a most terrifying memory, the atmosphere shakes, violently vibrates as this Draconian speedily comes up from 'a watery abyss' on his plateform (Ark?). These people are doing trans cosmic, transplutonian teleportation magick. This occurred on planet earth, we as humans where very young- immature. It is the 'sound magick' or vibration that is most frightening. It shatters the atmosphere.
1342.beta.photobucket.com/user/Peter789123/media/Draconian_zps6af34641.jpg.html
In my age now i realize that this is Einsteinian/Rosenbridge Quantum physics. We are not far away.
It has taken me most of my life to come to terms with this memory. These people are the 'reptilians' or Draconian s'. They once had this planet linked up with such technology- but now they do not. You will find plenty of stories statues and more of these people in tribal legends and Sumerian myths.
This is an example of why i say to initiates- trust your self.
Q"
93 Q,
Interesting, and I have heard of the conspiracy theory regarding the "Draconians" or the "Reptilians". I just feel for myself, not havibg any of the direct "memories" etc., I am not buying it. Or I should say I'm very skeptical. I have read regarding this how AC is connected to NASA and also part of some Alien agenda. I'm very open minded, perhaps to a fault I have come to realize, and I find a healthy skeptisim keeps me "sane" lol.
Little story, and please don't think I'm hinting your crazy! I wirk on an ambulance, and have had MANY psych patients who while in the back would go into detail why they weren't really crazy, details and "facts" some facts were true per se, but taken wrong. They seemed to build a distorted belief around a confused mental construct unable to untie themselves and it built up a seemingly unpenetrable wall locking them ina self made prison of delusion. If anyone tried to correct them, they became part of the conspiracy etc., they refused to be open about being wrong. This I think is of course an exaggeration, but it paints an extreme example of the dangers of accepting these conpiracy constructs. Sometimes I think we getso far along we don't want to have it broken down since it was built with a lot of "love".
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J -
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Q789 said
"I disagre that you need to accept these things as truth. Rather, I think the key is to accept them unconditionally as relevant.
Trying to pin down what is true leads you into one kind of trouble if you believe yourself, and another if you don't! However, you can validate the legitimacy of your experience, and that the meaning you attach comes from yourself (and, therefore, is of yourself and expressive of yourself)."
"Yes, Jim, Truth might be the wrong word. I get many of these experiences and they form the basis of much magickal knowledge. What i will advise is that one should learn to trust their intuitions/visions. Why? well your inner light/HGA is not going to appear on the physical plane is it? So development of your 6th sense is a must.
Yes i understand what you are saying Romeo, I too have had experience with mentally ill. My psychiatrist only gave me ADHD and the pills help. However, delusions, manic depression and the like NO. I have built my house on rock not sand brother.
One of the problems with researching/theorizing ET is that the subject is full of BS- about 80%, full of whackos claiming reptilians are taking over the White House. It is for this reason I understand your skepticism. This is one reason why I stick mainly to the evidence that ET was here for some time till about 10,000 years ago.Though ample evidence is apparent that ET is watching.
Actually, it is quite sad that there is so much BS about the subject, as it is a serious issue for mankind. Turning your back on your childhood is a foolish move.Q
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@Pattana Gita said
"I used to watch my adults cats playing with a completely imaginary mouse.
"Nonsense.
Cats see all sorts of real things that most humans can't see.(Then again, I should remember who I'm talking to and figure that, if there was an invisible mouse there, you'd prtobably have seen it, too.)
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@Pattana Gita said
"Btw - what's with the grandiose presentation style today? You sound like me after 3/4 bottle of Vodka, except I'd usually have went to sleep by now."
Sounds like me when I found out what a real HGA actually is...the last time I was on Zeta Reticuli.
