I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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"
I ALSO have had several "episodes" of what you call depression and I know perfectly well how to differ a depression from what I'm going through. The first thing that differs is the "pain", inside. There is no pain in depression, there is perhaps a little and more "greyness" and "sadness."Read again, what I describe here can’t be connected to a simple “depression” "
That's to my point. IMHO, it's not "simple" depression, it's serious depression. One of the hallmarks of serious depression is that you believe wholeheartedly that what you're going through is completely unique and/or that nothing or no one could possibly ever help you. That's why serious depression can be so sinister. IMHO, you need professional help and internet forums are not going to serve your needs.
There is a strong relationship between Crowley's advice to "learn to control thought" in Liber Librae (v. 18, and in the preceding and following advice therein) and what Dr. Burns says in Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy.
"Your emotions result entirely from the way you look at things. It is an obvious neurological fact that before you can experience any event, you must process it with your mind and give it meaning. You must understand what is happening to you before you can feel it.
If your understanding of what is happening is accurate, your emotions will be normal. If your perception is twisted and distorted in some way, your emotional response will be abnormal. Depression falls into this category. It is always the result of mental "static'--distortions. Your blue moods can be compared to the scratchy music coming from a radio that is not properly tuned to the station. The problem is not that the tubes or transistors are blown out or defective, or that the signal from the radio stations is distorted as a result of bad weather. You just simply have to adjust the dials. When you learn to bring aout this mental tuning, the music will come through clearly again and your depression will lift.
Some readers--maybe you--will experience a pang of despair when they read that paragraph. Yet there is nothing upsetting about it. If anything, the paragraph should bring hope. Then what caused your mood to plunge as you were reading? It was your thought, "For other people a little tuning may suffice. But I'm the radio that is broken beyond repair. My tubes are blown out. I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness! (Harper: 2009. Pp. 29-31. Italics are Burns'; bolds and underlines are mine.)"
Burns calls these "mental delusions" cognitive distortions. Here's a link to them.
Like I said, I'm not offering advice, just my humble opinions. What have you got to lose? Look into it. The worst that could happen if you do is that you can dismiss it as rubbish.
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"I’m sorry but I am old fashioned and I also got a bit of a temper… You are a good man and I won’t use this tone of mine against you ever again. You were the one having to take the blow that others before you provoked.
Peace and much love!
DS."
Don't sweat it. I can take the blows. I've been through a lot. I did not take it personally. Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing.
Peace and love back at you.
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PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?
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@landis said
"PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because."
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."
Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Takamba said
"
@landis said
"PS:I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because.""
Landis, Takamba,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
What you guys are talking about sounds like a sunday pick nick... It makes me think of the time before meeting my HGA: "The dark night of the soul". During this period of my life I had to overcome many fears that "because" tried to sweep beneath the carpet by "rationalizing". I had to be strong; be decisive; not to think in endless loops show courage and to move forward...
But now that I recall, being down here in the darkness... In the beginning of my experience 2,5 years ago I went against my reason all the time! I did many things which my reason questioned and protested against... Ahhh and still does, like now when I don't get any work done! And I feel it's a pure waste of time... Thanks for reminding me!
Why would people fear the abyss? If there was only such a simple as a thing as avoiding falling prey for "because"? That is ridiculous! Of course there is suffering - more than you can possibly imagine. What is it that you "Tambaka" fail to understand with "The vision and the voice?" Let me try to bring you some understanding:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the Soul…[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.”
What part is it that YOU don't understand? "blind ache of the Soul"? "Sorrow is my name and affliction"? "Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound."?Do you think these are words of expression!? I have LIVED those words daily for 2,5 years - so please show some **** respect! Actually suffering is a "sacrament" and that is what the Master of the Temple understands... starting to...
My experience is negative, but then also positive, but why pay attention to that which contradict your own reasoning?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Where's your 7=4 thesis?
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"
@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose.
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"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"Where's your 7=4 thesis?"
Patrick Ossoski,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I wrote and created this small book - that must be considered to be my "thesis". It wasn't a conscious decision that:
"Now I am going to write this 7=4 thesis", since I at the time didn't know for sure where I was at... My current initiation whereabouts so to say. I couldn't tell if I was 6=5, 7=4 or a babe of the abyss everything was moving so fast and I had no experience and had no way of telling for sure...
I understood this much later... Perhaps, since Jim was so nice to tell me a little about the first 6=5 gate (Which I could relate to), could you Jim or somebody else tell me something about the other two gates?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"Hahaha you made me laugh!
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Hi that's Choronzon. I will not let you cross !
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?
You didn't asnwer my question about precision and specificity.
Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong.
Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were.
Are you a mind reader?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"
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"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME! -
Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@landis said
"What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?"
I was quite "persuasive" and put some "pressure" back on to you, but I wasn't harsh was I? At least know this: I didn't intend to be harsh, just pressure-like and persuasive.
@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME!"It always has everything to do with ourselves, as I see it... I think all this is all about YOU, but we can keep talking about ME if you want.... I just felt I were on to something, that's all.
@landis said
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
I don't feel hopelessness even though I can ask the question: "Am I lost?" But I know it's the dying ego of a man asking, wanting to know where I am in the process and how far I got left... I therefor don't want help getting out of what you think is a depression. I want the Lord to have me down here until he sees me fit to move on... Actually he would piss me off if he let me out of it any sooner!
@landis said
"Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall."
I wouldn't use the word "depressed", since that would give you the wrong idea where I am at. But okey, my state of mind might share some of the symptoms of a serious depression. I don't know... But if we are talking about the 10 "cognitive distortions" from the link that you gave me. I DID read them for YOUR sake, and it was of course a waste of time, since I couldn't relate to any of them - None - Nada - Zip! They all were something that might have had been an issue many years ago, but if so, has been dealt with a long long time ago...
This is why I won't read the books you recommended... Because I don't feel depressed... I keep telling you that there is joy too, but it's like talking to this wall. You simply won't listen.
@landis said
"You didn't answer my question about precision and specificity."
Have I answered your questions now? You need other data?
@landis said
"Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong."
I won't read those books since I don't have the problems you are talking about, Once again: I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that.
Now Agent Starling before we go any futher; I would like to have some of my questions answered since this "vulnerability issue" (?) makes you keep running away from them:
Let me repeat:
*Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask YOU a personal question: Can YOU make yourself:
**Vulnerable... **
Or are YOU running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?*
@landis said
"Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were. Are you a mind reader?"
Were I a mind reader? I were right, weren't I? Because meds are a serious thing: They block emotions and shut down the hearts of men... I also felt it is hard to reach you... To touch your heart... And since you put yourself in a spot where you think you can diagnose and help another man... It becomes a trusty-issue... Therefor I ask this question: Are YOU on any medication?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace.
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hawk child, i think i know what you mean by pain inside screaming... and i think it goes from karma, that you havent fulfilled something, missed opurtunity in past lives. In such case its not abyss.
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Ever consider this: Somebody going through deep deppression might classify their experience as "The abyss" In Order to give it some sort of meaning.
Coming through such an experience is certainly no mean feat, and many never do come out of it, or at best get to a point where they can function with the aid of medication. Some come out the other side and back into their own sunlight. Many of who come through do so with the aid of one or another Phycho/spiritual system, including Thelema.
enough has been said of the path of Tau and its apparent similarity with the abyss. Not having crossed the abyss I can't comment on that either.
One thing I can comment on is the predictable cycle one again repeating itself on thus forum: Some soul comes here claiming to have crossed the abyss and is soon hit with a barrage or argument as to why s/he is mistaken; gets defensive and angry, eventually goes off in a huff having gotten no help at all but only derision and condescension.
Is this helpful? Or is there another way?
Wouldn't it be more helpful for people making these claims to be heard out without criticism, after all it doesn't matter a fig to know the grade of another or where they are on their specific journey:
(Bringing to mind the latest '8=3' to surface).
If somebody is affiliated with the AA then only that individuals superior and/or students need know their grade, its simply not relevant to anyone else and more likely to cause grade-jealousy than actually do any good. If they are not affiliated to the Order then they actually have no grade whatever (albeit insofar as they may be doing the work unaided) and need make no claims except out of egotism.If Hawk headed child is going through the abyss, then he'll either sink or swim according to his karma, its not relevant to anybody else, and so to affirm it or deny it is also not relevant. If he is deeply depressed then he will either sink or swim according to his karma, and once in the clear he will recognize his error and perhaps continue on the path better armed for the real abyss by his ordeal.
Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.
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