I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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@landis said
"PS:
I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because."
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."
Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Takamba said
"
@landis said
"PS:I thougth "the abyss" for Thelemites was just the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source, and that as such "crossing" it is not necessarily a "negative" experience?"
That's not a bad way to put it, which is why it is generally agreed that the Hawk Headed Child is not encountering "crossing the Abyss" as he believes. His life may feel abysmal to him, and there are numerous abysses in life we can fall into, but not to be confused with the journey across reality where the danger is actually to fall into the beliefs of "because.""
Landis, Takamba,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
What you guys are talking about sounds like a sunday pick nick... It makes me think of the time before meeting my HGA: "The dark night of the soul". During this period of my life I had to overcome many fears that "because" tried to sweep beneath the carpet by "rationalizing". I had to be strong; be decisive; not to think in endless loops show courage and to move forward...
But now that I recall, being down here in the darkness... In the beginning of my experience 2,5 years ago I went against my reason all the time! I did many things which my reason questioned and protested against... Ahhh and still does, like now when I don't get any work done! And I feel it's a pure waste of time... Thanks for reminding me!
Why would people fear the abyss? If there was only such a simple as a thing as avoiding falling prey for "because"? That is ridiculous! Of course there is suffering - more than you can possibly imagine. What is it that you "Tambaka" fail to understand with "The vision and the voice?" Let me try to bring you some understanding:
Here abideth terror, and the blind ache of the SoulâŠ[] And he said: Thou hast entered the night; dost thou yet lust for day? Sorrow is my name and affliction. I am girt about with tribulation. Here still hangs the Crucified One, and here the Mother weeps over the children that she hath not borne. Sterility is my name and desolation. Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound.â
What part is it that YOU don't understand? "blind ache of the Soul"? "Sorrow is my name and affliction"? "Intolerable is thine ache, and incurable thy wound."?Do you think these are words of expression!? I have LIVED those words daily for 2,5 years - so please show some **** respect! Actually suffering is a "sacrament" and that is what the Master of the Temple understands... starting to...
My experience is negative, but then also positive, but why pay attention to that which contradict your own reasoning?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Where's your 7=4 thesis?
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@landis said
"Maybe my empathy is my own delusion, but I think I have at least some clue as to what you're experiencing."Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask you a personal question: Can you make yourself: Vulnerable... or are you running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?
I ask because I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall...
I know you think you know what I suffer from! You are very stubborn (The wall thing!) And if I would have had the problems you think that I have - you would be the one I would like to talk to...
But I don't... And I also know it doesn't matter what I say to you, because it would be like going to the shrink and trying to convince him that I am not sick and he responds by saying:"What you are saying now is also a symptom of your disease!"
There is no way I can win this argument... No way in hell, you are to stubborn for that (The wall thing)... No hard feelings but your heart is shut and I can feel it...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose.
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"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"Where's your 7=4 thesis?"
Patrick Ossoski,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I wrote and created this small book - that must be considered to be my "thesis". It wasn't a conscious decision that:
"Now I am going to write this 7=4 thesis", since I at the time didn't know for sure where I was at... My current initiation whereabouts so to say. I couldn't tell if I was 6=5, 7=4 or a babe of the abyss everything was moving so fast and I had no experience and had no way of telling for sure...
I understood this much later... Perhaps, since Jim was so nice to tell me a little about the first 6=5 gate (Which I could relate to), could you Jim or somebody else tell me something about the other two gates?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"Hahaha you made me laugh!
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Hi that's Choronzon. I will not let you cross !
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@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I feel it's hard to reach you; to touch your heart... It's like talking to a wall..."
Precisely and specifically wich part of this
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
feels like your'e talking to a wall?Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall.
"Have you read the books I recommended? If not, are you going to? If you're in that much pain you have little or nothing to lose."
"Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
1.) No I haven't. read those books. And No I won't read them.
2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!
You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!
Are YOU on medication? Antidepressants?
Go back and give my question a serious thought and answer me and show me that YOU know how to listen...
vulnerability! vulnerability! vulnerability! Do you know what that is?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?
You didn't asnwer my question about precision and specificity.
Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong.
Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were.
Are you a mind reader?
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!You can't show vulnerability! Do you know how to cry? Your heart is shut, you are "numb", and It is YOUR heart that i can't touch... It is YOU I can't reach... But YOU prefer thinking that it's ME... Well it's not... YOU are like a WALL... YOU don't listen!"
That does sound abyss-like.
"
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"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME! -
Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@landis said
"What happened to your promise not to use that tone with me ever again?"
I was quite "persuasive" and put some "pressure" back on to you, but I wasn't harsh was I? At least know this: I didn't intend to be harsh, just pressure-like and persuasive.
@landis said
"
@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"2.) It's YOU... Only YOU... YOU don't listen - I asked you a question!? Let's talk about YOU... only YOU!"
We just "met." You've had this problem, as you've stated over and over, "2, 5 years," so it couldn't possibly have anything to do with ME, ME, ME!"It always has everything to do with ourselves, as I see it... I think all this is all about YOU, but we can keep talking about ME if you want.... I just felt I were on to something, that's all.
@landis said
""I don't care if ten thousand other depressed patienst all get well--I'm convinced beyond any shadow of doubt that my problems are hopeless." I hear this statement fifty times a week! Nearly every depressed person seems convinved beyond all rhyme or reason that he or she is the special one who really is beyond all hope. This delusion reflects the kind of mental processing that is at the very core of your illness!"
I don't feel hopelessness even though I can ask the question: "Am I lost?" But I know it's the dying ego of a man asking, wanting to know where I am in the process and how far I got left... I therefor don't want help getting out of what you think is a depression. I want the Lord to have me down here until he sees me fit to move on... Actually he would piss me off if he let me out of it any sooner!
@landis said
"Are you able to admit you're seriously depressed? Unless you do that, everyone you talk to about this will feel like a wall."
I wouldn't use the word "depressed", since that would give you the wrong idea where I am at. But okey, my state of mind might share some of the symptoms of a serious depression. I don't know... But if we are talking about the 10 "cognitive distortions" from the link that you gave me. I DID read them for YOUR sake, and it was of course a waste of time, since I couldn't relate to any of them - None - Nada - Zip! They all were something that might have had been an issue many years ago, but if so, has been dealt with a long long time ago...
This is why I won't read the books you recommended... Because I don't feel depressed... I keep telling you that there is joy too, but it's like talking to this wall. You simply won't listen.
@landis said
"You didn't answer my question about precision and specificity."
Have I answered your questions now? You need other data?
@landis said
"Why won't you read those books? The worse that could happen is you'll be able to use them to prove me wrong."
I won't read those books since I don't have the problems you are talking about, Once again: I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that.
Now Agent Starling before we go any futher; I would like to have some of my questions answered since this "vulnerability issue" (?) makes you keep running away from them:
Let me repeat:
*Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask YOU a personal question: Can YOU make yourself:
**Vulnerable... **
Or are YOU running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?*
@landis said
"Why do you want to know if I'm on meds? I didn't ask you if you were. Are you a mind reader?"
Were I a mind reader? I were right, weren't I? Because meds are a serious thing: They block emotions and shut down the hearts of men... I also felt it is hard to reach you... To touch your heart... And since you put yourself in a spot where you think you can diagnose and help another man... It becomes a trusty-issue... Therefor I ask this question: Are YOU on any medication?
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace.
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hawk child, i think i know what you mean by pain inside screaming... and i think it goes from karma, that you havent fulfilled something, missed opurtunity in past lives. In such case its not abyss.
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Ever consider this: Somebody going through deep deppression might classify their experience as "The abyss" In Order to give it some sort of meaning.
Coming through such an experience is certainly no mean feat, and many never do come out of it, or at best get to a point where they can function with the aid of medication. Some come out the other side and back into their own sunlight. Many of who come through do so with the aid of one or another Phycho/spiritual system, including Thelema.
enough has been said of the path of Tau and its apparent similarity with the abyss. Not having crossed the abyss I can't comment on that either.
One thing I can comment on is the predictable cycle one again repeating itself on thus forum: Some soul comes here claiming to have crossed the abyss and is soon hit with a barrage or argument as to why s/he is mistaken; gets defensive and angry, eventually goes off in a huff having gotten no help at all but only derision and condescension.
Is this helpful? Or is there another way?
Wouldn't it be more helpful for people making these claims to be heard out without criticism, after all it doesn't matter a fig to know the grade of another or where they are on their specific journey:
(Bringing to mind the latest '8=3' to surface).
If somebody is affiliated with the AA then only that individuals superior and/or students need know their grade, its simply not relevant to anyone else and more likely to cause grade-jealousy than actually do any good. If they are not affiliated to the Order then they actually have no grade whatever (albeit insofar as they may be doing the work unaided) and need make no claims except out of egotism.If Hawk headed child is going through the abyss, then he'll either sink or swim according to his karma, its not relevant to anybody else, and so to affirm it or deny it is also not relevant. If he is deeply depressed then he will either sink or swim according to his karma, and once in the clear he will recognize his error and perhaps continue on the path better armed for the real abyss by his ordeal.
Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.
93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"
Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way.93 93/93"
But by mislabeling it, he is not helping himself, he is hindering. Correctly understood, the conditions he is suffering can be helped, but incorrectly understood, his conditions cannot be helped. The gift of Discernment is very valuable here.
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Vadox, Archaeus
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Vadox said
"hawk child, i think i know what you mean by pain inside screaming... and i think it goes from karma, that you havent fulfilled something, missed opurtunity in past lives. In such case its not abyss."
"The gross must pass through fire", so of course some of my experience back 2-4 years ago is a Karma thing. I know/felt it, that I have been "so to say" paying for my Evil deeds...
But "The Vision and the Voice" is my testimony. It's like it's written to myself.
Why did my Angel finally leave me? I didn't do what the Black Brother does, abandon it... It was saddening for me to have this blissful experience with her and afterwards seeing our communication slowly fading away - actually it was panicking when i realized what was happening - and beyond all horror to finally lose connection with her...
The more I tried to stay in contact, the more she seemed to pull away from me...
So either I lost her because of 7=4; me taking the Oath of the Abyss (I did my essay and I did take the oath: I swore in blood on TBOTL about 2,5 years ago to accomplish the great work.)
OR... I accidentally broke connection somewhere along the way losing myself forever... If we are to think of this final alternative; I might as well kill myself... But I won't... Since I am the one KNOWING what actually happened; I am the one KNOWING who I am; and I am the one KNOWING my own destiny.
I try to hang in there... Do the work and if I succeed perhaps I will some day "unite" with my Beloved and achieve true UNION. I can't even imagine how that would be like... I can't even desire it... Since I feel imperfect, impure, dirty and therefor unworthy of such an event...
@Archaeus said
"Simply put; its better to help than to hinder, and if you can't help but only aggravate the problem then get out of the way."
Great post and well said!
Love is the law, love under will
Peace
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"Why did my Angel finally leave me?"
Is this a physical flesh and blood woman you are referring to, whom you have associated with your HGA? You did mention a relationship with a physical flesh and blood woman and a child earlier, her leaving you seeming to herald the beginning of this crisis for you. Am I correct?