I'm going through the experience of the Abyss...
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@Patrick Ossoski said
"W.W.A.S. (What Would Aleister Say...)"
Bugger off?
Quit sniveling and give me my crampon? -
"I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that."
Cognitive distortions aren't something we conquer once and for all. They require the hard work and discipline of actively dsiputing them throughout our whole lives.
Myaybe you can better relate to Albert Ellis's take: 10 Irrational Beliefs Responsible For Most Human Unhappiness?
"
The page numbers are from his book, A Guide to Rational Living.-
The idea that you must have love or approval from all the significant people in your life (101).
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The idea that you absolutely must be thoroughly competent, adequate, and achieving; or the idea that you must be competent or talented in some important area (115).
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The idea that other people absolutely must not act obnoxiously and unfairly, and, that when they do, you should blame and damn them, and see them as bad, wicked, or rotten individuals (127).
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The idea that you have to see things as being awful, terrible, and catastrophic when you are seriously frustrated or treated unfairly (139).
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The idea that you must be miserable when you have pressures and difficult experiences; and that you have little ability to control, and cannot change, your disturbed feelings (155).
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The idea that if something is dangerous or fearsome, you must obsess about it and frantically try to escape from it (163).
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The idea that you can easily avoid facing many difficulties and self-responsibilities and still lead a highly fulfilling existence (177).
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The idea that your past remains all-important and because something once strongly influenced your life, it has to keep determining your feelings and behavior today (187).
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The idea that people and things absolutely must be better than they are and that it is awful and horrible if you cannot change life’s grim facts to suit you (197).
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The idea that you can achieve maximum happiness by inertia and inaction or by passively and uncommittedly enjoying yourself (207).
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@Patrick Ossoski said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
""It is mine UNIVERSE you hear me! MINE!"The funny thing is that I really meant it - it was all from the depth of mine heart! Those were the sincere words of Pan..."
The point of Pan (The All) is that it's all "Universes". Ranting about "YOUR Universe" is a bit disturbing, to say the least."
That's because you failed to understand the universal Joke. You didn't see the playfulness behind me saying it... I wish someone understood!"
Wait. I thought it was all about "ME, ME, ME"? -
Landis,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@landis said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"*Since that empathy of yours got me curious... Let me ask YOU a personal question: Can YOU make yourself:**Vulnerable... **
Or are YOU running from yourself, having this control issue: "The need to focus on other people's problems" and "to take care of other people"?*"
Of course, but not globally. It is unwise to be vulnerable to everybody, especially people you just "met" online. "
Sounds like a sound attitude…
@landis said
"Unless you're a mind-reader or have some other relevant psychic "powers" you couldn't possibly know my emotions or thoughts. It is hard for some to reach me, as wisdom dictates. I don't let just anybody "touch my heart." "
It sounds like you have “self-respect”.
@landis said
"I did not put myself in a spot to diagnose you--that's a result of you misunderstanding me. If you don't think I can't help you, that's fair enough. Maybe I can't. Time will tell. "
But you did help me, perhaps not in the way you intended too, but you put your time and effort in there for me – proving yourself to be a “helpful” man. Also you have shown great patience with me even though I have been somewhat difficult with you – and you know I have!
Seeing this in YOU helped me…
@landis said
"When I said twice this is my opinion and not advice that was to be interpreted as, "I'm not trying to diagnose you." Legally, the only people qualified to diagnose you are psychiatrists (and maybe MDs). And if you mean by "diagnose" label you by the DSM, then I would never try to do that to anyone as I find the DSM a virtually useless tool. "
You are most kind and I know you wouldn't… I appreciate you taking the time trying to help me... I’m sorry for being so difficult…
@landis said
"Wait. I thought it was all about "ME, ME, ME"?"
But it is all about YOU!
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@landis said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that."Cognitive distortions aren't something we conquer once and for all. They require the hard work and discipline of actively dsiputing them throughout our whole lives.
Myaybe you can better relate to Albert Ellis's take: 10 Irrational Beliefs Responsible For Most Human Unhappiness?"
This is fun... I only read the first from "10 Irrational Beliefs Responsible For Most Human Unhappiness?"
I am going to give you the answer from 1-5 on each question and "1" being 100% false and "5" being 100% true. Okey, let's go. Let me read them now and get back to you.
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@landis said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
"I read the link that you gave me for YOUR sake; the 10 cognitive distortions". I couldn't relate at all. Been there done that."Cognitive distortions aren't something we conquer once and for all. They require the hard work and discipline of actively dsiputing them throughout our whole lives.
Myaybe you can better relate to Albert Ellis's take: 10 Irrational Beliefs Responsible For Most Human Unhappiness?
The page numbers are from his book, A Guide to Rational Living.
"1. The idea that you must have love or approval from all the significant people in your life (101)."
1
"2. The idea that you absolutely must be thoroughly competent, adequate, and achieving; or the idea that you must be competent or talented in some important area (115)."
3
"3. The idea that other people absolutely must not act obnoxiously and unfairly, and, that when they do, you should blame and damn them, and see them as bad, wicked, or rotten individuals (127). "
2
"4. The idea that you have to see things as being awful, terrible, and catastrophic when you are seriously frustrated or treated unfairly (139)."
1
"5. The idea that you must be miserable when you have pressures and difficult experiences; and that you have little ability to control, and cannot change, your disturbed feelings (155)."
2
"6. The idea that if something is dangerous or fearsome, you must obsess about it and frantically try to escape from it (163)."
1
"7. The idea that you can easily avoid facing many difficulties and self-responsibilities and still lead a highly fulfilling existence (177)."
1
"8. The idea that your past remains all-important and because something once strongly influenced your life, it has to keep determining your feelings and behavior today (187). "
2
"9. The idea that people and things absolutely must be better than they are and that it is awful and horrible if you cannot change life’s grim facts to suit you (197). "
1
"10. The idea that you can achieve maximum happiness by inertia and inaction or by passively and uncommittedly enjoying yourself (207)."
"1
Now there are my honest answers… Doctor you got any comments upon this illness (?) of mine?
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Greetings The_Hawkheaded_child
You're welcome. I honestly have no hard feelings and I don't think I know better than you. I can be very difficult sometimes too.
I am TRYING to help you. Not as a professional but as person--as someone who also feels pain. I know it's a shot-in-the-dark kind of scenario, but I also know the information I'm sharing won't make it worse.
It is fun in a way. I like that you put it on a scale, too. I beleive your "scores" are honest and accurate.
I've struggled with all these at one time or another, especially 4-6 and 8, and like I said, it demands from me daily active disputation to make sure I don't descend in to abject irrationality. And sometimes, despite my best efforts, I have moments of total irrationality.
I hope you find what you're looking for.
Kindly,
landis -
@Jim Eshelman said
"But there's no need to wrangle and wrestle with it so (unless, of course, y'know, there's something in you that needs to wrangle and wrestle with it right now).
You just need to move past and find the new formula of connection, your own next step."
All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
The new formula might be "gratitude" I am currently conunteracting and neutralizing every "shadow" with this humble feeling of gratitude! This mindset perhaps might be the only way out of this. It doesn't take away the pain in my chest, but it seem to make me able to handle, doubt, despair, sorrow - all those sucidal feelings that has been trying to pull me down for these 2,5 years.
It's like really cold weather; me greeting every shadow with gratitude , doesn't take away the cold, but it takes away "the edge" and the psyche downwardspiral down the abyss. It keeps my spirit up and it keeps me in control of my emotions. I will have to keep practising it for a much longer time before really knowing if I am on to something or not...
I don't know what will happen and how or if things will work out. If they do, I might report back in the future - since even though you perhaps think me depressed, mad or what ever you think of me; it could interest you if I made it out of the darkness or not...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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That's very interesting; and gratitude is a feeling of the heart opening.
Peace unto you as well.
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Thank you
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I just want to share this experience…
Today while walking along the pathway, downtown, I were doing my prayers of gratitude and when “suddenly”… I felt that something wanted to enter my conscious mind; but I managed to finish one last: “I am so thankful” before – out of nowhere – leaped the name:
BABALON
It was my first “contact” with something real in two years! Nothing really moves me anymore, but I still experience chills over my body while thinking of this incident.
Now let me get back to being grateful
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Thank you very much for taking the time to deal with this problem of mine. Thanks for the critique, and your thoughts in general… You were all in your own way an important brick in me finding this new formula – and by god – finding the holy grail it self!
It now all seem to sort itself out. The prayer of gratitude; greeting every shadow; greeting every phenomena in general – letting go – has in this short time changed me radically.
I even have had two people, independent of each other, and spontaneously commenting upon mine mood; that I look much happier!!! I even caught myself once saying:
“Now the spring is here with hope and possibilities!”
That was the most odd thing to say for someone that has been battling suicidal feelings for 2,5 years. So the prayer of gratitude is working all right!
Now one can say that I have really started to “let go” and this isn’t always as easy as it sounds… I have noticed a lot of fear in the process of doing it… I have even noticed that I have actually been clinging to the darkness itself! The suicidal feelings were “an exit” so to say – if everything would have been to scary and difficult there was before an escape.
Now I don’t have this option anymore…
I understand, that greeting everything with invoking this feeling of gratitude, saying: “Thank you so much”. Helps me out of denial and the mistake of clinging to things I weren’t even aware of clinging to. True submissiveness to God can only be possible when accepting EVERY phenomena as it is, accepting everything that enter my conscious mind. Staying Grateful for everything, makes no room for denial and lies like: “but I am letting go” when I am really not “emotionally”… I weren’t… even if I said I was! I weren’t!
I now understand that I have been trying to make myself fast against the universe, refusing to wholeheartedly accept my destiny (whatever it might be.)… because of fear I have clung so long to this darkness – cursing it when I were in it; wishing it to be over – longing for it when it wasn’t present; wanting it back!
I were truly stuck down here… but now…
Invoking this “opposite” feeling (I wonder if this is what Crowley is referring to when he is talking about the "formula of contradiction"?), the feeling that everything has been given to you and that everything is exactly as it should be at this very moment – is insane (Imagine what it could do for poor people and people in general?). It is the destroyer of depression and it is the destroyer of everything else! I even try to share it with other people when I have the opportunity to do so...
A friend of mine is now using it too, and from using it just a little during two days he understood the true power of prayer!
Finally:
I here and solemnly swear to become gratitude!
I will give my thanksgivings to the Lord for everything that has been, everything that is and everything that is to come! I have been so disobedient, naughty, unthankful and I have a lot of making up to do…Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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Lots of emotionalism here?
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@Archaeus said
"Lots of emotionalism here?"
Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Yeah I know and eventually I will get a hold of myself. Let's remember that I am only at the beginning here of "letting go"... My magickal name has been Captator - which means one who "eagerly sizes". My emotional attachement to some phenomena is huge; it therefor will take a long long time before I'm done with stirring up feelings like this...
Your statement is therefor correct... and I am letting go of what you see too, when I have the strengh to do it that is (This "Captator-thing", is strong within me; this part that makes me wanna cry "hi" before making the jump over the river - one really shouldn't do that... I should learn to hold my horses so to speak... Perhaps now that you know that I am aware of being emotional, that you will start to understand me...
I am greeting these feelings with gratitude aswell, but at times they still overcome me so to say... To be frank: I am still very childish... and it's anoying, it really is... BUT! I will stay this way until I become something else... I can't force or rush myself out of anything... I can only stay present and do the work - slowly adjusting to whatever comes up without lust for any results... and perhaps I will gain some preachous patience along the way...
The road ahead of me, before "becoming" the road itself... will probably take a very long time to walk...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Archaeus said
"Lots of emotionalism here?"Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Yeah I know and eventually I will get a hold of myself. Let's remember that I am only at the beginning here of "letting go"... My magical name has been Captator - which means one who "eagerly sizes". My emotional attachement to some phenomena is huge; it therefor will take a long long time before I'm done with stirring up feelings like this...
Your statement is therefor correct... and I am letting go of what you see too, when I have the strengh to do it that is (This "Captator-thing", is strong within me; this part that makes me wanna cry "hi" before making the jump over the river - one really shouldn't do that... I should learn to hold my horses so to speak... Perhaps now that you know that I am aware of being emotional, that you will start to understand me...
I am greeting these feelings with gratitude aswell, but at times they still overcome me so to say... To be frank: I am still very childish... and it's anoying, it really is... BUT! I will stay this way until I become something else... I can't force or rush myself out of anything... I can only stay present and do the work - slowly adjusting to whatever comes up without lust for any results... and perhaps I will gain some preachous patience along the way...
The road ahead of me, before "becoming" the road itself... will probably take a very long time to walk...
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace"
Interesting choice of a Motto; and boy did that one come back to haunt you huh?
After some consideration I decided that if you were in fact going through the phase of spiritual experience that you say you are then I wouldn't really be in a position to comment, and since you are not undergoing the process as an initiate (I mean Formally as oppose to actually; its obvious that 'something' is going on) then there is no-one else who is really in a position to recognize the fact. Quite simply it is not relevant to anybody else; its your trip, and yours alone.
That said, reading and re-reading your posts I can't distinguish it from a rather undisciplined (Dare I say accidental!?) 31st path crossing, everything is there and I recognize elements from my own work in that area. Your recognition of Babalon is concurrent with something that happened to me during my preliminary 0=0 work and the Kundry and all the rest is all classic 1=10.
I could go on ad nausium, but like I said; it doesn't matter; its your path and all I can do is offer my perspective.
93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"That said, reading and re-reading your posts I can't distinguish it from a rather undisciplined (Dare I say accidental!?) 31st path crossing, everything is there and I recognize elements from my own work in that area. Your recognition of Babalon is concurrent with something that happened to me during my preliminary 0=0 work and the Kundry and all the rest is all classic 1=10. "
There are subtle differences...
Generally speaking, the 31st crossing is a "passive acceptance,"
Where he appears to be "actively aligning"The important part is he may go merrily on his way
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Archaeus,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Archaeus said
"Interesting choice of a Motto; and boy did that one come back to haunt you huh?
"It has haunted me since the day I started the great work 11 years ago. But it has gotten a lot better after ridding myself from the Megalomania of youth. Now finally I am at this end of the road when Captator will be annihilated once and for all.
In due time…
It’s interesting how this always turn out to be a discussion about whenever I am an Babe of the abyss or not… I don’t care as much of anybody’s approval anymore… I did so when I first came here – but the “letting go part” is draining my ego and is drawing my consciousness back into the core of my star (This is how it actually feels when greeting every dealing of God with my soul... One could also compare this feeling of mine with how it must have felt for God when he withdrew himself from his own creation – veiling himself from man.)
I understand that to cross this desert, actually has nothing to do with “manpower”, it has only to do with if the Lord finds me worthy or not! My inner self keeps pondering: “The gross must pass through fire…” I am at the end of methods and exact science – and at the beginning of prayer and worship... Knowing this in my heart strikes me with the sense of awe and the feeling of wanting to sing a song, expressing my love for our Lord!
"I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me!"
Now this drawing back of consciousness into the light… Is like the Indian principle “Not that. Not that”, immediately when I am aware of any certain train of thoughts, emotions, different impressions etc. (herby categorizing every phenomena as “shadows”): I let go of those shadows by saying “Thank you so much”. This process feels like “pulling away” from everything – almost like “shielding” myself so to say…
I don’t know if this work of mine is an characteristic of what an babe of the abyss is supposed to be occupied with – but this is what I currently do as much as I am moved to do it (Not “forcing” myself – actually letting go of any forcing or lusting for any results! I understand that you can’t force a tree to grow, therefore the process must take it’s time.)... Only Jim or somebody else that can “relate” or is knowledgeable about what it is that I am doing, can confirm to what it is that I am actually doing…
Let me also comment upon how this prayer came into existence: My experience, my understanding tells me that this prayer was planted as a seed within me – “the concept of gratitude” so to say – was planted within me many months ago and has been “watered” by people along the way… And one day when this seed had matured enough it suddenly sprung forth in the form of a “prayer” and I immediately understood the metaphysics behind it – recognized the truth – and started using it.
Oh mighty Lord of the universe hear my prayer: Thank you so much for everything!
I would like to believe that the last drop which made the cup overflow into this prayer, had to do with being in the presence of a Master at these forums – I actually had to come here so to say! If not the case, don’t you think it still makes a very good story!? I sure do...
Now, when I came to these forums I were lost (?)… that’s a fact… I didn’t know what I were looking for and then suddenly like the zen-Buddhist monk that stumbles upon the satori experience – lo there it was! So after feeling lost and hurt inside for so long!!! I am back in business again – now isn’t that incredible?
But it’s hard to please you… You are a very very demanding teacher! I have found my way out of tears and 2,5 years of suicidal feelings – and your comment was:
@Archaeus said
"Lots of emotionalism here?"
That’s so crazy it even made me laugh! You won’t let me rest and enjoy one bit of the reward from my hardships – will you!? Not one little slice of that yummy apple-pie!? The work itself must be my reward, is what you are actually telling me – now that I call being demanding!
But I like it…
So from listening to what your divine inner nature keeps telling me (I don’t always listen to the exact words of other people. I listen to what the universe is actually telling me!) is that I need to keep on “letting go”…
And I am, but I couldn't resist the temptation of playfulness, perhaps it is the flaws in my own nature – perhaps it is mine emotional attachment to these forums that must burn themselves out before you see the end of my posting – or I will find the reason to keep on hanging around here pleasing you even when I have “crossed” – I don’t know and I can’t be 100% sure, and it really doesn’t matter. Even though it sounds like bad logic having several masters hanging around here…
What will be will be…
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment upon my simple words.
@Uni_Verse said
"The important part is he may go merrily on his way
"Beautiful creature! God bless!
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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True I'm a harsh critic (Saturn in conjunct with natal Virgo) but believe me I'm gentle with you compared to how I treat myself
Anyway, as Universe said, on your way and rejoice, I accept that 'Thou hast no right but to do thy Will'.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@The_Hawkheaded_child said
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Looking back, I've probably written more about 6=5 than any other part of the journey. There is so much to say. But lt me try this: The entry is the Path of Lamed, and the experience of that is a confrontation of all of the elements of Karma - of coming to recognize (with the same simplicity that one breathes) the inseverable connection between one's actions and their consequences. The time in the grade of blistering hot, energy high, impact of events high. Though it isn't the whole of the experience of the grade, person after person has reported a path of Severity, harsh realities, abrupt disruptions in life, a kind of purgation and a kind of accident of losing things through one's clear actions. There were, for me, visions of Babalon, soul-stripping severity, and the like."
"This honestly sounds erielly familiar to me........
And honestly, how would all Thelemites agree on what exactly the abyss is???? How are we able to determine the doctrine of something of which that there may be no exact formula to exact from the experience of others than that of Crowley?? If the example left by him, minus all the symbolism in the holy writings then how is it we can all determine the actuality of this experience.....
Also could you please describe the qualifications, benchmarks and or anything as to what development is at 6=5??
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I don't want to spew my own experience all over these forums, so I would like to adress this special phenomena of the abyss here instead - quoting from this other thread (magick forums): "Using black magick to cross the abyss"
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Horus said
"A counter intuitive idea... using black magick to cross the abyss.As far as the intent is crossing the abyss, couldnt it work theorically?
If i worship money and muscles and cars and women, place them as supernals on the tree of life, keep on assuming harpocrates form every morning, and get not distracted by 333, couldnt it work?"
Now, your instinct about counterintuitive approaches is correct. Totally sound. It's a paradox, though, that if you're going to break all the rules, you need to do it the right way. ;"
That is really amazing. Because in my own case for instance. I didn't have a clue to this concept of "invoking the opposite". I had no preconceived idea of the abyss at all... I am also not aware of ever having read anything about how it is supposed to be done... (It perhaps is possible, but I have no re-collection of it.). Then after over two years in the dark (!) out sprung this "greeting of shadows with gratitude". That something like this - after all these years of suffering - finaly came to me - is so beyond every word of expression...
I would call it a miracle... if didn't knew better... And also if I would have had the emotions to back up the word. Now days, I find it hard to get emotionally excited by anthing, even so called "miracles" fail to stirr up any special feelings at all... It's funny to feel like this - almost like being indiffrent - but still not being at all indiffrent about anything in life!
I'm not that easily excited any longer, that's it... Perhaps it is called having "matured"? Finaly!
I also thought that this "letting go" princple was an "passive" decision. That I were supposed to "float around" in this darkness; to make myself as passive as possible. I had the mindset of making myself like "a corpse" so to say. And by doing so, that things would work out - that all those suicidal feelings, tears, pain etc. would finaly worn themselves out and go away...
They didn't... and it later came to my knowledge that I had actually been clinging to them - yes that is true! I were doing just the opposite of "letting go", thinking I were letting go! How crazy isn't that? If I didn't know that all has been necessary, I would have called myself a fool... Okey, okey I were a fool...
But finaly, out of the sacrament of suffering; out of necessity (I have been at the tree where to hang myself three times! Been trying for so long just to "hang in there".) "suddenly" forth sprung salvation, in form of this prayer. For so long blinded by ignorance, had I failed to understand that "letting go" actually is an "active" decision.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace