Martials arts magick

oldfriend56

I'm curious as to how you refer to brazillian jui jitsu as the A A of martial arts.

How so? To me this would be Aikido.

Just curious

Hermes

...

oldfriend56

@Frater Horus said

"
@ldfriend56 said
"I'm curious as to how you refer to brazillian jui jitsu as the A A of martial arts.

How so? To me this would be Aikido.

Just curious"

The thing is in "martial arts" there's the word "martial". For me, aikido is not a martial art(no disrespect intended) if not mixed with other styles. I'd say it's a form of kiko(chi gong) with a partner. You will not use aikido to kick {***}."

well technically speaking, Aikido is the culmination of all of japanese budo, including, but not limited to - jiu jitsu. Actually it's really just a more evolved form of jiu jitsu mixed with sword. It's a modern incarnation so it is a pure synthesis of japanese martial styles.

Does that make a difference?

"

BJJ as a style proved to be the most efficient in MMA."

sure, but one could make the claim that competition sports arn't true martial arts either. martial meaning 'war'. going to war is not the same thing as preparing for competition in a ring where now matter what happens, both sides get paid

"

There's no way one can defend against it without knowing it. Like i said, even international level judokas and wrestlers cant do much to the average blue belt... except if they do also BJJ. If so, yeah, they will destroy blue belts, because the styles are actually related, so they learn VERY fast. But even then, after purple belt it wouldnt count much. And any black belt would still hand their {***} to them."

that's quite a claim. I do remember some of the gracies getting a little pummeled when they went to japan and competed against some judokas.

Aikidokas tend to stay out of competition sports so I am not sure if there have been many tests in that department.

"

I'm sure masons and aikidoka are great at what they're doing, but in our fields(which in they seem to include themselves... that's the only problem) they are light years behind. "

hmm, how much do you know about Aikido to make such a claim that they are behind in martial knowledge and understanding?

"

For me Crowley cleaned up the bullshit of golden dawn, just like BJJ guys cleaned up the bullshit of judo. "success is thy proof" Crowley. "

are you just basing this on watching MMA tournaments?

"

How do you block a 5 feet nose in aikido????????
If you can beat my uncle in a fight i join aikido class
And if he breaks your head with "it", at least he can repair it after
Just make sure you have enough cash, it might be expensive...
I can pm you his IBAN... and mine, as i promote the fight "

well that's the interesting thing about martial artists. there is always one guy out there that can always beat you, no matter what style they or you or anyone does. Bruce Lee didnt do BJJ but I am sure your uncle may have had a problem with him. I am sure Bruce Lee may have had a problem with Morehei Usheba....there is always some guy out there...

I just mention aikido as being an advanced system on par with AA because

1.)It's literally a 'new aeon' martial art, coming into existence in the early 20th century with Morehei Usheba.

2.)It was birthed through an enlightenment where the founder was at war in china.

3.)Aikidio is the first and only martial art that presents a 'win win' solution to violent martial combat as an actual martial strategy. In this regard it's truly a new martial revelation, an historical one actually. Can you think of any other martial art where the core strategy is to prevent your opponent from hurting himself while he tries to kill you? Please note the complete counter intuitive proposal here - how can a win win martial strategy emerge victorious in a win lose battle?

4.)The founder was the undefeated martial artist in japan during WW2. He was challenged by all martial practitioners and was undefeated his entire life. He was also famous for dodging bullets and catching swords. yes, success is indeed your proof !

5.)Aikido is also a complete path and philosophy, and it comes from a magical, shamanistic tradition in Japan with all sorts of cool spirits, prayers, incantations, tantras, etc etc

I could probably name a bunch more but I am exhausted. If your into the occult and martial arts, you may find yourself quite intrigued reading about Aikido's founder, Morehei Usheba. One of the most fascinating biographies I have ever read. If there ever was a true avatar martial arts master, he clearly fit the bill. He was the real deal, you would probably quite enjoy his story.

It's not the best for self defense, at least not for many many years. BJJ is a much quicker path to self defense. It could take an aikidoka 10 or more years to be able to apply the art in a true martial situation.

Although I dont train like I used to, I used to spar with a few BJJ guys. Sometimes they would pin me. Sometimes I would pin them. I am not sure if little things like that are enough to judge a style's merit on. I dont think BJJ would do so good on a battlefield where one has multiple attackers all trying to kill you with a sword. That's the environment Aikido comes from. Any style needs to be judged inside of where it's relevant.

Fr Cognosco cum Lux

I would like to mention xingyiquan in this thread.
It is an internal style like tai chi that emphasizes 5 ways to emit force that parallel the chinese 5 element theory.

Metal / Piquan / Chopping Fist
Its form is like an axe and intention is like chopping something.
Like an axe chopping up and over.

Water / Zuanquan / Drilling Fist
Its form like lightning and intention is like a winding stream.
Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.

Wood / Bengquan / Crushing Fist
Its form is like an arrow and intention is like shooting something.
Arrows constantly exploding forward.

Fire / Paoquan / Cannon Fist
Its form is like cannon; horizontal power is extremely great, it has the nature of a gun.
Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.

Earth / Hengquan / Crossing Fist
Horizontal fist belongs to Earth; its form is like a bullet.
Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.

It is these 5 fists that the xingyi practictioner constantly trains in. 5 types of force. I thought it apt that I mention it given the OP.

Thomas_Knite

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

I have been a practitioner of martial arts for over 25 years and have combined my stretching practices with some form of mediation but never thought to look at the forms them selves as acts of magick,I was once asked if I could sum up what best rewards are obtained through practice was, I replied, complete freedom through personal achivement, which is the same thing we find in the practice of magick,at least to me. Yes this is a very cool thread, I will definitely apply this to my martial arts and magical training.

Hermes

@ldfriend56 said

"...."

Haha ! I'm glad you took it friendly.

I was actually going to write similar stuff with you to re-equilibrate, cause i felt like a prick telling only one side of the truth.

All i know about aikido is maybe 2 months of training and a lot of videos. Couple of my karate teachers teached also aikido. Also at bjj there's an aikido master. He has great bjj. The wristlocks when you mix good bjj and good aikido are just insane. There's Roy Dean who teaches both.

I'd like to investigate it more and will certainly read about Ueshiba. Maybe you'd like Yoseikan budo, it's a modern style based on aikido, but with boxing form(footwork, punches...), karate strategy...

And yeah, you can win without fighting with aikido, but i can too, if i'm a 250 pounds bjj blackbelt. People just run away... or pull a gun

There's also those philippino styles for a counter example. Go and try to play their stick n knife game without knowing it... Crazy speed, rythm, accuracy... It might have no "power" but i'm sure it's very efficient...

Hermes

@Fr Cognosco cum Lux said

"I would like to mention xingyiquan in this thread.
It is an internal style like tai chi that emphasizes 5 ways to emit force that parallel the chinese 5 element theory.

Metal / Piquan / Chopping Fist
Its form is like an axe and intention is like chopping something.
Like an axe chopping up and over.

Water / Zuanquan / Drilling Fist
Its form like lightning and intention is like a winding stream.
Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.

Wood / Bengquan / Crushing Fist
Its form is like an arrow and intention is like shooting something.
Arrows constantly exploding forward.

Fire / Paoquan / Cannon Fist
Its form is like cannon; horizontal power is extremely great, it has the nature of a gun.
Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.

Earth / Hengquan / Crossing Fist
Horizontal fist belongs to Earth; its form is like a bullet.
Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.

It is these 5 fists that the xingyi practictioner constantly trains in. 5 types of force. I thought it apt that I mention it given the OP."

Thanks man, that's some great stuff to investigate.

Hermes

Some interesting muay thai questions:

As in other styles there are different sub-styles. There are thai boxers who rely more on straight boxing, others more on knees, kicks, and so on. But there's a "thai style" even though. It's different from kickboxing, karate, boxing.

I think overall it relies more on power and agressiveness. Thus the different style and scoring. Thus in competition, you can score with a blocked strike, or not score with a landed strike. What counts more is the damage induced.

Now what's interesting, is when this strategy works best. At first i thought it works best when you have physical advantage, for instance if you're heavier and stronger than the adversary. But now i think it's more a timing and rythm question. The timing is different to make this style work. Thus you can see small thai boxers make it work against heavier adversaries.

The point is they prepare the strikes more in advance. They rely less on pure speed and reactiveness, but more on leverage and momentum. If the timing is right, it works. Doesnt matter if the strike is blocked, it will hurt and create openings.

The advantage also for the small fighter is he takes less risks. He opens less his guard. He strikes only when he's sure to induce great damage, so he leaves himself less open to counters.

Now if you mix this style with western boxing, and some karate, you get the dutch style, like practiced in Mejiro gym, Golden Glory, Chakuriki... Beautiful, simple and effective.

Overall i see the dutch style as such:

karate attitude
boxing strategy
muay thai form

Notice dutch fighters, at the same time, take less risks, but also land huge strikes when there are openings. And they create a lot of openings. They tend to master all ranges, styles, and rythms of striking equally, which gives them that smooth and "clean" style.

It can be interesting to think "dutch style" when training, whatever your style of striking. Think about it during combinations and transitions of ranges and rythms. What is the best form at that particular moment? Do i deliver that particular blow or wait for the next adjusting of the adversary, or create another opening?...

Now when both boxers think that way and play on such field it gets very internal. K1 world max (the lightweights) shows good examples of such things, with endless battles of rythms and combinations...

Hermes

Some combos and their elemental correspondances:

.jab-jab-jab: air

.jab-jab-double flying knee: fire

.jab-straight-low kick(mawashi): water

.elbow(mawashi)-straight: water

.knee-low kick(mawashi): fire

.low kick(mawashi)-knee: water

.double knee-low kick(mawashi): air

When there is footwork involved between techniques in a combo, it tends to "add" air. When ondulation or head movement is involved, it adds water. When the rythm is irregular, it adds fire. If the rythm is regular, it adds air.

Also an interesting point comparing muay thai and karate: their methods of training are both almost opposite to their way of fighting(on pure technique level, not on conditioning of course). In muay thai you do huge rounds of a single technique regularly, for instance you do 500 middle kicks non stop, same leg, till your leg is swollen... so the guys get a huge cadence of striking. Like an automatic rifle But in fights they tend to avoid such strategies.

In karate you work a lot on single strikes, on pure power and explosiveness with a "one hit one kill" intent(sniper like) but when the karateka fights he tend to score more "points" but with less power than thai boxers... Yin and yang...

Sr_MNA

@Fr Cognosco cum Lux said

"I would like to mention xingyiquan in this thread.
It is an internal style like tai chi that emphasizes 5 ways to emit force that parallel the chinese 5 element theory.
It is these 5 fists that the xingyi practictioner constantly trains in. 5 types of force. I thought it apt that I mention it given the OP."

I've been training in the Chinese/Taoist internal martial arts for a few years now - wonderful stuff! When embraced across all its levels, it's a complete theurgic practice in itself. Very transformative, especially when combined with the studies in healing (as it should be) and the perfection of internal energy. It has completely redefined the way I look at Magick now. Though, the school I work with is rather unique in that we don't spar - the focus is on personal Reintegration through training in the techniques, where the fighting abilities gained from it are basically side effects (similar to what Crowley says about siddhis.)

Prior to that, my very first martials arts training was in a private family style, which was an elemental based system. Quite useful training, as I found around the time I was starting to seriously study Magick and the elemental work complemented each other well. The system classified movement and the fighter's natural style based on a combination of factors, rather than the arts themselves:

Fire: Mobile, linear, aggresively seeking to consume the opponent, active. fast but damaging attacks, purely offensive
Water: Reflective (returning whatever energy is sent), circular, flowing and entrapping, seeking to contain the opponent,
Air: Circular, evasive, passive (preferring to exhaust or ellude the opponent), valuing causing the least amount of harm,
Earth: Linear, Passive until zone is invaded, uses blocks as strikes, crushing or breaking, defensive. Standing ground or going to ground.
Void: Mixes styles as appropriate, strategic, lacks a ruling style and will use what is appropriate to the situation. Able to put aside one's personal style to use another to effective counter opponent's energy.
Ethereal: "Fights without fighting," by controlling or directing energy, intimidation, mental or energetic dominance, psychic insight, etc. Filling the void with a superhuman power.

The system's training approach was based in learning to find your natural style, and developing yourself in harmony with it while at the same time mastering the other elements to be able to counter an opponent's natural style by using the element which negates it. There's been an echo of this in my current studies, where finding one's natural style (using the animal styles instead) involves destroying learned or assumed patterns that distort one's true nature. It complements the principle of "Know Thyself" very well. From there, one starts to unite with opposing or dissimilar styles to balance the nature and achieve a state greater than the sum of the parts, just as in alchemy.

It's good to see a discussion of this subject here...this is an important part of the Work, and in my opinion particularly suited, if not necessary, to Thelemic practice.

In Light, Life, Love, and Liberty,
MNA

MMA_Magus

I did something similar to this a long time ago. As a competitive MMA fighter I broke it down by ranges of the Sefer Yetzirah:

Striking range = Fire/Shin
Clinch range = Air/Alef
Ground Range = Water/Mem

also could be

Striking range = Cardinal
Clinch range = Fixed
Ground Range = Mutable

Also I would edit some of the above:

4.Within jiu jitsu:
Earth: various guards
Water: sweeps
Fire: submissions
Air: guard passing
Ether: chaining: passes/sweeps/various guards with submissions

7.Within MMA fighters:
Earth: cain velasquez, Fedor Emelianeko (to calm to be fire)
Water: nick diaz, bj penn
Fire: George St Pierre (for his explosion)
Air: Loyoto Machida, anderson silva (for footwork)

Hermes

Thanks bro... interesting. I actually read your post just before going to BJJ and applied the "edit" concerning guard passes. It does work better with air.

I tried also subs with this mindset(air) succesfully. Very interesting how it changes the game...

For instance the kimura fits well. Also it may depend on the opponent's and one's flow in real time.

Do you practice straight BJJ too or only MMA?

It could be interesting to study fighters charts, style and career wise, and astrological conditions of specific bouts...

Just a quick element:

Diaz=cancer
GSP=taurus

I notice both use their natural advantage but also work mostly on the opposite(air for GSP, Fire for Diaz)... What is sure is what they do work

MMA_Magus

@Frater Horus said

"Thanks bro... interesting. I actually read your post just before going to BJJ and applied the "edit" concerning guard passes. It does work better with air.

I tried also subs with this mindset(air) succesfully. Very interesting how it changes the game...

For instance the kimura fits well. Also it may depend on the opponent's and one's flow in real time.

Do you practice straight BJJ too or only MMA?

It could be interesting to study fighters charts, style and career wise, and astrological conditions of specific bouts...

Just a quick element:

Diaz=cancer
GSP=taurus

I notice both use their natural advantage but also work mostly on the opposite(air for GSP, Fire for Diaz)... What is sure is what they do work "

I occasionally (couple times a week) practice just BJJ (normally no gi). Most of my BJJ training though is starting from being mounted or side mounted and trying to escape and submit while getting punched, its a great drill for MMA.

I could see Kimuras being air like. If you do what Dean Lister calls a long range Kimura you use knee as a post on their arm (inside your guard) to keep their arm bent, then kick your leg out to lock in the kimura. It's deceptive, quick, and requires quick movement = air qualities.

Most submissions require explosion though (even the kimura) so I would label air passing and fire submissions. The human body can withstand long slow joint manipulation, but if you explode into it = submission.

I like your GSP/Diaz breakdown, it works well with my ranges and sefer yetzirah. GSP is a Taurus (fixed clinch/takedowns) and Diaz is a Cancer (Mutable ground BJJ). They each work on their opposite element though, GSP = Air (Safety lead Jabs) and Diaz = Fire (rapid 1 2s, especially rear straights)

gurugeorge

I very much approve of Thelemites taking a practical line with the MA. I've done a bit of BJJ myself, and love it. Marcelo Motta was an accomplished Judoka.

Basically, it's highly recommended by Crowley to take up a physical discipline, and martial arts are attractive in that you kill two birds with one stone - you get something enjoyable that keeps you fit, and you learn how to defend yourself (and your principles!).

I feel I should add something to the mix that might be useful for Thelemites too. Basically, there's a whole are of Chinese and Japanese martial arts that revolve around the use of something called "qi" or "ki". Now the way this has been understood in folk culture both in the East and the West, is as some sort of magic power. Sort of like a Superhero power.

But actually the reality is far more interesting. "Qi" is a very wide term in Chinese, and it means something broadly like "motivating power". It is cognate with *prana *and pneuma - i.e. it's a general philosophical concept. Now every practical activity in Chinese sought to line itself up with this general philosphical concept, and used "qi" as a term denoting "motivating force" in their areas of interest and expertise.

No less so in the martial arts. What this means is that "qi" boils down to a particular type of use and co-ordination of the body. The use is that conditioning and training the body's fascia is an integrated part of the training. The co-ordination is quite complex, but issues in a way of exerting a lot of force in a short time (impulse) from very short distances and any angle, with comparatively little muscular exertion.

The slow practice of forms, characteristic of Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyi/Xinyi (which are the most well-known form of this kind of art) is meant to gently re-co-ordinate the body in a different way so that it's able to accomplish this feat of clever leverage and additive power trains naturally and instinctively. Traditionally in those systems, after you acheive this new type of body-co-ordination, you start gentle exercises with a partner, and over time learn how to use this new way of moving the body in a more martial context, till you get to full-on free-fighting.

Needless to say, these systems were held quite secret, usually by clan lineages in rural areas, and they took quite a lot of punishment during the Cultural Revolution. But sufficient of these clan systems (and their citified variants) have survived for us to know that this type of body use is a "thing" that we didn't know about before (and is the source of the more legendary material surrounding the MA).

Probably up to the Tang dynasty, this was the "normal" way of doing MA in China. But over generations, and with the rise of guns, this "true way" declined. It was found more expedient to train soldiers more quickly in external MA, and add a bit of "internal neigong" to condition the fascia (this in itself is quite a powerful addition to any external system, although it does not make it "internal" - that's defined by the use of the dantien - the whole waist area - to control the body). This was particularly popular in Southern forms up until the Revolution, and since it's mostly Southern forms that came to us before the opening up of Communist China in the 80s, what we've mostly seen until the 80s was this type of mixed system.

But since the 80s, teachers of the authentic systems from the mainland, with continuity unbroken, have appeared (e.g. Yang Zhenduo for Yang style, Chen Xiaowang for Chen style), and we've been able to see more of the real thing. There are still very few teachers of the real thing even in China, far less the West. But they're there, and even if you won't find any of them locally, most of them do seminars that you can attend so you can get some triangulation.

So there you go, a brain dump on the "internal" martial arts, from a Thelemic perspective - the truth, the whole truth (as I understand it), and nothing but the truth. Judge your "internal" MA teacher as to how much of this they're aware of.

Hermes

Ok guys you may laugh at me but i'll share some kind of "unorthodox" training idea:

Dragon ball z astral work. That's it. You assume "god forms" of the super sayen and fight the way they do in the astral.

Fr Cognosco cum Lux

Does part of your dragonball z training involve screaming as loud as you can until your hair grows a couple feet and changes colour?

Hermes

Yes it's traditional shotokan karate-do.

After black belt it's dragon ball z.

That's the real okuden bunkai.

You rise on the planes as a super sayan and you become very muscular.

Hermes

One thing which is very good with karate as a style is it is very unpredictable. Because there are no fixed patterns of rythms and of defenses/attacks. So when you mix it with boxing and muay thai it's very good. See Peter Graham when he knocked out Badr Hari. Same last week end with Belfort vs Rockhold. There is Gunnar Nelson also who illusrtates well althought differently, what he does works very well.

Mercure: boxing
Salt: muay thai
Sulphur: karate

Hermes

A little meditation:

Sephiroth in Assiah:

10.Body conditioning
9.Technique
8.Mind control
7.Spiritual victory
6.Fighting
5.Mastery
4.Creativity
3.Dedication
2.Joy
1.Crazyness

Sephiroth in Yetzirah:

10.Spiritual victory
9.Visualisation
8.Strategy
7.Unpredictability
6.Style
5.Specials
4.Combos
3.Yin
2.Yang
1.Tao

Sephiroth in Briah:

10.Style
9.Tao
8.Yin
7.Yang
6.HGA
5.Path
4.Beauty
3.Omniscience
2.Omnipresence
1.Omnipotence

Hermes

What can be said if i placed in the meditation above yetziratic concepts in Briah? Can we say "briatic part of Yetzirah"?

Isnt Briah in Yetzirah and Yetzirah in Briah? Isnt the point of vue which differs? Are these questions Briah of Yetzirah as questions, and in Assiah by writing them?

And as such is it right i cant make correspond anything other than divine names with Atziluth?