Martials arts magick

[Hermes]

@Fr Cognosco cum Lux said

"I would like to mention xingyiquan in this thread.
It is an internal style like tai chi that emphasizes 5 ways to emit force that parallel the chinese 5 element theory.

Metal / Piquan / Chopping Fist
Its form is like an axe and intention is like chopping something.
Like an axe chopping up and over.

Water / Zuanquan / Drilling Fist
Its form like lightning and intention is like a winding stream.
Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.

Wood / Bengquan / Crushing Fist
Its form is like an arrow and intention is like shooting something.
Arrows constantly exploding forward.

Fire / Paoquan / Cannon Fist
Its form is like cannon; horizontal power is extremely great, it has the nature of a gun.
Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.

Earth / Hengquan / Crossing Fist
Horizontal fist belongs to Earth; its form is like a bullet.
Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.

It is these 5 fists that the xingyi practictioner constantly trains in. 5 types of force. I thought it apt that I mention it given the OP."

Thanks man, that's some great stuff to investigate.

[Hermes]

Some interesting muay thai questions:

As in other styles there are different sub-styles. There are thai boxers who rely more on straight boxing, others more on knees, kicks, and so on. But there's a "thai style" even though. It's different from kickboxing, karate, boxing.

I think overall it relies more on power and agressiveness. Thus the different style and scoring. Thus in competition, you can score with a blocked strike, or not score with a landed strike. What counts more is the damage induced.

Now what's interesting, is when this strategy works best. At first i thought it works best when you have physical advantage, for instance if you're heavier and stronger than the adversary. But now i think it's more a timing and rythm question. The timing is different to make this style work. Thus you can see small thai boxers make it work against heavier adversaries.

The point is they prepare the strikes more in advance. They rely less on pure speed and reactiveness, but more on leverage and momentum. If the timing is right, it works. Doesnt matter if the strike is blocked, it will hurt and create openings.

The advantage also for the small fighter is he takes less risks. He opens less his guard. He strikes only when he's sure to induce great damage, so he leaves himself less open to counters.

Now if you mix this style with western boxing, and some karate, you get the dutch style, like practiced in Mejiro gym, Golden Glory, Chakuriki... Beautiful, simple and effective.

Overall i see the dutch style as such:

1. karate attitude
2. boxing strategy
3. muay thai form

Notice dutch fighters, at the same time, take less risks, but also land huge strikes when there are openings. And they create a lot of openings. They tend to master all ranges, styles, and rythms of striking equally, which gives them that smooth and "clean" style.

It can be interesting to think "dutch style" when training, whatever your style of striking. Think about it during combinations and transitions of ranges and rythms. What is the best form at that particular moment? Do i deliver that particular blow or wait for the next adjusting of the adversary, or create another opening?...

Now when both boxers think that way and play on such field it gets very internal. K1 world max (the lightweights) shows good examples of such things, with endless battles of rythms and combinations...

[Hermes]

Some combos and their elemental correspondances:

.jab-jab-jab: air

.jab-jab-double flying knee: fire

.jab-straight-low kick(mawashi): water

.elbow(mawashi)-straight: water

.knee-low kick(mawashi): fire

.low kick(mawashi)-knee: water

.double knee-low kick(mawashi): air

When there is footwork involved between techniques in a combo, it tends to "add" air. When ondulation or head movement is involved, it adds water. When the rythm is irregular, it adds fire. If the rythm is regular, it adds air.

Also an interesting point comparing muay thai and karate: their methods of training are both almost opposite to their way of fighting(on pure technique level, not on conditioning of course). In muay thai you do huge rounds of a single technique regularly, for instance you do 500 middle kicks non stop, same leg, till your leg is swollen... so the guys get a huge cadence of striking. Like an automatic rifle But in fights they tend to avoid such strategies.

In karate you work a lot on single strikes, on pure power and explosiveness with a "one hit one kill" intent(sniper like) but when the karateka fights he tend to score more "points" but with less power than thai boxers... Yin and yang...

[Sr_MNA]

@Fr Cognosco cum Lux said

"I would like to mention xingyiquan in this thread.
It is an internal style like tai chi that emphasizes 5 ways to emit force that parallel the chinese 5 element theory.
It is these 5 fists that the xingyi practictioner constantly trains in. 5 types of force. I thought it apt that I mention it given the OP."

I've been training in the Chinese/Taoist internal martial arts for a few years now - wonderful stuff! When embraced across all its levels, it's a complete theurgic practice in itself. Very transformative, especially when combined with the studies in healing (as it should be) and the perfection of internal energy. It has completely redefined the way I look at Magick now. Though, the school I work with is rather unique in that we don't spar - the focus is on personal Reintegration through training in the techniques, where the fighting abilities gained from it are basically side effects (similar to what Crowley says about siddhis.)

Prior to that, my very first martials arts training was in a private family style, which was an elemental based system. Quite useful training, as I found around the time I was starting to seriously study Magick and the elemental work complemented each other well. The system classified movement and the fighter's natural style based on a combination of factors, rather than the arts themselves:

Fire: Mobile, linear, aggresively seeking to consume the opponent, active. fast but damaging attacks, purely offensive
Water: Reflective (returning whatever energy is sent), circular, flowing and entrapping, seeking to contain the opponent,
Air: Circular, evasive, passive (preferring to exhaust or ellude the opponent), valuing causing the least amount of harm,
Earth: Linear, Passive until zone is invaded, uses blocks as strikes, crushing or breaking, defensive. Standing ground or going to ground.
Void: Mixes styles as appropriate, strategic, lacks a ruling style and will use what is appropriate to the situation. Able to put aside one's personal style to use another to effective counter opponent's energy.
Ethereal: "Fights without fighting," by controlling or directing energy, intimidation, mental or energetic dominance, psychic insight, etc. Filling the void with a superhuman power.

The system's training approach was based in learning to find your natural style, and developing yourself in harmony with it while at the same time mastering the other elements to be able to counter an opponent's natural style by using the element which negates it. There's been an echo of this in my current studies, where finding one's natural style (using the animal styles instead) involves destroying learned or assumed patterns that distort one's true nature. It complements the principle of "Know Thyself" very well. From there, one starts to unite with opposing or dissimilar styles to balance the nature and achieve a state greater than the sum of the parts, just as in alchemy.

It's good to see a discussion of this subject here...this is an important part of the Work, and in my opinion particularly suited, if not necessary, to Thelemic practice.

In Light, Life, Love, and Liberty,
MNA

[MMA_Magus]

I did something similar to this a long time ago. As a competitive MMA fighter I broke it down by ranges of the Sefer Yetzirah:

Striking range = Fire/Shin
Clinch range = Air/Alef
Ground Range = Water/Mem

also could be

Striking range = Cardinal
Clinch range = Fixed
Ground Range = Mutable

Also I would edit some of the above:

4.Within jiu jitsu:
Earth: various guards
Water: sweeps
Fire: submissions
Air: guard passing
Ether: chaining: passes/sweeps/various guards with submissions

7.Within MMA fighters:
Earth: cain velasquez, Fedor Emelianeko (to calm to be fire)
Water: nick diaz, bj penn
Fire: George St Pierre (for his explosion)
Air: Loyoto Machida, anderson silva (for footwork)

[Hermes]

Thanks bro... interesting. I actually read your post just before going to BJJ and applied the "edit" concerning guard passes. It does work better with air.

I tried also subs with this mindset(air) succesfully. Very interesting how it changes the game...

For instance the kimura fits well. Also it may depend on the opponent's and one's flow in real time.

Do you practice straight BJJ too or only MMA?

It could be interesting to study fighters charts, style and career wise, and astrological conditions of specific bouts...

Just a quick element:

Diaz=cancer
GSP=taurus

I notice both use their natural advantage but also work mostly on the opposite(air for GSP, Fire for Diaz)... What is sure is what they do work

[MMA_Magus]

@Frater Horus said

"Thanks bro... interesting. I actually read your post just before going to BJJ and applied the "edit" concerning guard passes. It does work better with air.

I tried also subs with this mindset(air) succesfully. Very interesting how it changes the game...

For instance the kimura fits well. Also it may depend on the opponent's and one's flow in real time.

Do you practice straight BJJ too or only MMA?

It could be interesting to study fighters charts, style and career wise, and astrological conditions of specific bouts...

Just a quick element:

Diaz=cancer
GSP=taurus

I notice both use their natural advantage but also work mostly on the opposite(air for GSP, Fire for Diaz)... What is sure is what they do work "

I occasionally (couple times a week) practice just BJJ (normally no gi). Most of my BJJ training though is starting from being mounted or side mounted and trying to escape and submit while getting punched, its a great drill for MMA.

I could see Kimuras being air like. If you do what Dean Lister calls a long range Kimura you use knee as a post on their arm (inside your guard) to keep their arm bent, then kick your leg out to lock in the kimura. It's deceptive, quick, and requires quick movement = air qualities.

Most submissions require explosion though (even the kimura) so I would label air passing and fire submissions. The human body can withstand long slow joint manipulation, but if you explode into it = submission.

I like your GSP/Diaz breakdown, it works well with my ranges and sefer yetzirah. GSP is a Taurus (fixed clinch/takedowns) and Diaz is a Cancer (Mutable ground BJJ). They each work on their opposite element though, GSP = Air (Safety lead Jabs) and Diaz = Fire (rapid 1 2s, especially rear straights)

[gurugeorge]

I very much approve of Thelemites taking a practical line with the MA. I've done a bit of BJJ myself, and love it. Marcelo Motta was an accomplished Judoka.

Basically, it's highly recommended by Crowley to take up a physical discipline, and martial arts are attractive in that you kill two birds with one stone - you get something enjoyable that keeps you fit, and you learn how to defend yourself (and your principles!).

I feel I should add something to the mix that might be useful for Thelemites too. Basically, there's a whole are of Chinese and Japanese martial arts that revolve around the use of something called "qi" or "ki". Now the way this has been understood in folk culture both in the East and the West, is as some sort of magic power. Sort of like a Superhero power.

But actually the reality is far more interesting. "Qi" is a very wide term in Chinese, and it means something broadly like "motivating power". It is cognate with *prana *and pneuma - i.e. it's a general philosophical concept. Now every practical activity in Chinese sought to line itself up with this general philosphical concept, and used "qi" as a term denoting "motivating force" in their areas of interest and expertise.

No less so in the martial arts. What this means is that "qi" boils down to a particular type of use and co-ordination of the body. The use is that conditioning and training the body's fascia is an integrated part of the training. The co-ordination is quite complex, but issues in a way of exerting a lot of force in a short time (impulse) from very short distances and any angle, with comparatively little muscular exertion.

The slow practice of forms, characteristic of Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyi/Xinyi (which are the most well-known form of this kind of art) is meant to gently re-co-ordinate the body in a different way so that it's able to accomplish this feat of clever leverage and additive power trains naturally and instinctively. Traditionally in those systems, after you acheive this new type of body-co-ordination, you start gentle exercises with a partner, and over time learn how to use this new way of moving the body in a more martial context, till you get to full-on free-fighting.

Needless to say, these systems were held quite secret, usually by clan lineages in rural areas, and they took quite a lot of punishment during the Cultural Revolution. But sufficient of these clan systems (and their citified variants) have survived for us to know that this type of body use is a "thing" that we didn't know about before (and is the source of the more legendary material surrounding the MA).

Probably up to the Tang dynasty, this was the "normal" way of doing MA in China. But over generations, and with the rise of guns, this "true way" declined. It was found more expedient to train soldiers more quickly in external MA, and add a bit of "internal neigong" to condition the fascia (this in itself is quite a powerful addition to any external system, although it does not make it "internal" - that's defined by the use of the dantien - the whole waist area - to control the body). This was particularly popular in Southern forms up until the Revolution, and since it's mostly Southern forms that came to us before the opening up of Communist China in the 80s, what we've mostly seen until the 80s was this type of mixed system.

But since the 80s, teachers of the authentic systems from the mainland, with continuity unbroken, have appeared (e.g. Yang Zhenduo for Yang style, Chen Xiaowang for Chen style), and we've been able to see more of the real thing. There are still very few teachers of the real thing even in China, far less the West. But they're there, and even if you won't find any of them locally, most of them do seminars that you can attend so you can get some triangulation.

So there you go, a brain dump on the "internal" martial arts, from a Thelemic perspective - the truth, the whole truth (as I understand it), and nothing but the truth. Judge your "internal" MA teacher as to how much of this they're aware of.

[Hermes]

Ok guys you may laugh at me but i'll share some kind of "unorthodox" training idea:

Dragon ball z astral work. That's it. You assume "god forms" of the super sayen and fight the way they do in the astral.

[Fr Cognosco cum Lux]

Does part of your dragonball z training involve screaming as loud as you can until your hair grows a couple feet and changes colour?

[Hermes]

Yes it's traditional shotokan karate-do.

After black belt it's dragon ball z.

That's the real okuden bunkai.

You rise on the planes as a super sayan and you become very muscular.

[Hermes]

One thing which is very good with karate as a style is it is very unpredictable. Because there are no fixed patterns of rythms and of defenses/attacks. So when you mix it with boxing and muay thai it's very good. See Peter Graham when he knocked out Badr Hari. Same last week end with Belfort vs Rockhold. There is Gunnar Nelson also who illusrtates well althought differently, what he does works very well.

Mercure: boxing
Salt: muay thai
Sulphur: karate

[Hermes]

A little meditation:

Sephiroth in Assiah:

10.Body conditioning
9.Technique
8.Mind control
7.Spiritual victory
6.Fighting
5.Mastery
4.Creativity
3.Dedication
2.Joy
1.Crazyness

Sephiroth in Yetzirah:

10.Spiritual victory
9.Visualisation
8.Strategy
7.Unpredictability
6.Style
5.Specials
4.Combos
3.Yin
2.Yang
1.Tao

Sephiroth in Briah:

10.Style
9.Tao
8.Yin
7.Yang
6.HGA
5.Path
4.Beauty
3.Omniscience
2.Omnipresence
1.Omnipotence

[Hermes]

What can be said if i placed in the meditation above yetziratic concepts in Briah? Can we say "briatic part of Yetzirah"?

Isnt Briah in Yetzirah and Yetzirah in Briah? Isnt the point of vue which differs? Are these questions Briah of Yetzirah as questions, and in Assiah by writing them?

And as such is it right i cant make correspond anything other than divine names with Atziluth?

[Hermes]

One thing i noticed now training again after a long break is the impact of hardcore physical activity on magick and yoga. It helps. The intensity makes a difference. It induces a form of trance which does not go away. And it seems to cut off the mind. Erik Paulson says it happened to him projecting out of his body spontaneously during hardcore training. Also it produces alchemical changes that both fortify and balance the body further than yoga and produce a helpful unbalance wich drives the practicioner towards the spiritual to compensate.

It might have helped Crowley a lot practicing mountaineering that seriously. It is very similar to martial arts as a sport by the way. The presence of death, the mariage of strength and finesse, the use of levers, cycles, rythms, strategies, and the intense impact on all physical dimensions like endurance, speed, force, proprioception, visualisation... There are no many sports which share all this to the same extent.

The mountain is the adversary and at the same time a partner of dance. It is unpredictable and at the same time predictable. The more difficult it is, the more challenging and dangerous. The only way to stay alive is alchemical transmutation on all planes. The only way to stay alive is death.

[Naora]

I've taken interest in this subject for quite some time, and applied it to playing drums. Also, the concept of ki energy has always intrigued me, since I loved Dragon Ball Z as a kid, and Bruce Lee is one of my idols. One thing I used to practice was thrusting my hands in such a way that the "wind" generated could knock over objects. While it obviously doesn't defy the laws of physics or anything, I think it has some sort of relation to the elemental roles in martial arts.