Evocation: Like condensed steam or in a person?
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@Frater 639 said
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I think the "effectiveness" variable lies in the operator, not *a priori *in the technique or plane affected."I am just focussing on this bit here.
Yes the operator must be proficient. However thaumaturgy allows something to be built up and released like Franz Bardon's magic gesture and at the moment of release no theurgy at all is required. This is why in this example Bardon warns that an untrained person knowing the secret Magic gesture could use its power by just imitating the gesture. So if this were to occur no theurgy at all would be happening and the operator could have absolutely no proficiency (except in making the hand gesture).
So yes in certain circumstances it is purely the technique or plane effected I would say.
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@axismundi said
"To emphasise the material world; what I am trying to get across is that thaumaturgy is centred I feel more on the material whereas theurgy brings the Divine through which may then effect the material."
That would be a highly personalized definition of the word
It does help me understand what you were saying.Personally, I think the words you were seeking are "parlor tricks." I dispute that there is any form of magick (any thing for which "magick" is the correct word) that has its roots anywhere except in the Divine.
"So to try another way to describe: it could be at the material level considered a polarity. Pure thaumaturgy is material effects via occult practices."
All effective occult practices rely on the "one and only energy" that originates in the Divine.
"Theurgy is the Divine brought to the material which may produce physical effects by 'miracles'.
So I feel we have a spectrum with a sliding scale from theurgy to theurgy/thaumaturgy to thaumaturgy."
I think there must be another word that would express your idea better. Actually, I think it's a false dichotomy and you're mistaken on the real source of power behind what you are calling thaumaturgy.
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I shall press on, I think thaumaturgy is more towards what I am describing. Sorcery which is moving existing energy around rather then bring stuff in from the Divine is a form of thaumaturgy I feel. However I accept I am handicapped here by the Wikipedia definition of thaumaturgy and miracles.
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If you don't mind, I think the distinction is a matter of worldview.
There simply are those who choose to understand (and speak of) what they are doing as having no relationship to any sort of divinity or Divine reality at all. There are also those who refuse to allow themselves to do anything that they see as conflicting with their primary understanding of divinity. And there are some who see no difference because they see it all as Divine.
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@axismundi said
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@Frater 639 said
".....
I think the "effectiveness" variable lies in the operator, not *a priori *in the technique or plane affected."I am just focussing on this bit here.
Yes the operator must be proficient. However thaumaturgy allows something to be built up and released like Franz Bardon's magic gesture and at the moment of release no theurgy at all is required. This is why in this example Bardon warns that an untrained person knowing the secret Magic gesture could use its power by just imitating the gesture. So if this were to occur no theurgy at all would be happening and the operator could have absolutely no proficiency (except in making the hand gesture).
So yes in certain circumstances it is purely the technique or plane effected I would say."
I think his idea has much more to do with the *operator's belief *that using the hands will release "something." Bardon constantly pushed concentration above all - and in the later stages of his book, a magician was supposedly capable of all "energy" work through mostly imagination. Was the attributions he gave to certain hand gestures related to the elemental attitudes? I didn't think that he was relating them to specific spirits or evocation - I have to confess, I haven't read him for awhile...
How do you feel this example fits in with evocation? I would consider the building up of energy in "magical gestures" to be more energy model based and evocation to be more spirit model based...is that perhaps the dichotomy that we're looking at?
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Yes, I dispute that copying the gesture would work. One has to build it up for oneself.
The gestures are essentially keyboard macros.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes, I dispute that copying the gesture would work. One has to build it up for oneself.
The gestures are essentially keyboard macros."
I have to admit I do not have a currently loaded gesture because I tend to do volting these days. It would be interesting to test this, load a gesture get someone to use it when you do not know it is being utilised, see if any effect.
Frater 639
To refresh your memory in Initiation into hermetics, Bardon identifies that a loaded gesture can be used by anyone if they learn it even though the operator goes to the effort of loading it.I will get back to this after some sleep
Thanks both for your thoughts
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@Frater 639 said
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@axismundi said
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@Frater 639 said
".....
I think the "effectiveness" variable lies in the operator, not *a priori *in the technique or plane affected."I am just focussing on this bit here.
Yes the operator must be proficient. However thaumaturgy allows something to be built up and released like Franz Bardon's magic gesture and at the moment of release no theurgy at all is required. This is why in this example Bardon warns that an untrained person knowing the secret Magic gesture could use its power by just imitating the gesture. So if this were to occur no theurgy at all would be happening and the operator could have absolutely no proficiency (except in making the hand gesture).
So yes in certain circumstances it is purely the technique or plane effected I would say."
I think his idea has much more to do with the *operator's belief *that using the hands will release "something." Bardon constantly pushed concentration above all - and in the later stages of his book, a magician was supposedly capable of all "energy" work through mostly imagination. Was the attributions he gave to certain hand gestures related to the elemental attitudes? I didn't think that he was relating them to specific spirits or evocation - I have to confess, I haven't read him for awhile...
How do you feel this example fits in with evocation? I would consider the building up of energy in "magical gestures" to be more energy model based and evocation to be more spirit model based...is that perhaps the dichotomy that we're looking at?"
I would say that the hand gesture if it produces a physical effect is evocation and the spirit if it appears physically is evocation also. This brings me back to the Theurgy vs Thaumaturgy where I think that the popular definition of thaumaturgy is wrong. The Wikipedia definition of thaumaturgy us inherently Xtian I feel because it uses the word miracle. Miracles are things that occur through Divine intercession which I think is a more Theurgy thing.
Evocation in as far as it is a physical thing can be occur via Theurgy or Thaumaturgy.
For theurgy the evoked effect could be for example: Water is turned to wine because the 'son of God' did it.
For thaumaturgy the evoked effect is a car mechanic learns a hand gesture from a magician and when it is employed by them in the street, the nearest person from the mechanic starts hopping on 1 leg for a short time instead of just walking along.Both are evoked effects. The thaumaturgy comment I made originally here was a perhaps misguided attempt to emphasise results over spiritual attitude, I am personally finding this all very useful.
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@axismundi said
"This brings me back to the Theurgy vs Thaumaturgy where I think that the popular definition of thaumaturgy is wrong. The Wikipedia definition of thaumaturgy us inherently Xtian I feel because it uses the word miracle. Miracles are things that occur through Divine intercession which I think is a more Theurgy thing."
The word "miracle" is not inherently Christian - far from it! It simply means a wonder - something wondrous to behold. And don't blame Wikipedia for this one, it's the literal meaning of the word: The Greek thauma means "miracle, wonder, marvel," etc.
It's not just a "popular definition." It is as inherent in the word as "wonder" is in "wonderful."
I hear that you're wanting to make a distinction, and to have a word that means something like "magick that is not dependent on Atziluth."
"For theurgy the evoked effect could be for example: Water is turned to wine because the 'son of God' did it."
<sigh> That's awfully narrow. You're stuck in the idea of theurgy being a prayer, etc. That's very narrow, and excludes 99% of what is rightly counts as theurgy. If the definition were indeed that narrow, then I'd see why you wanted a term for everything else.
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@Jim Eshelman said
".....
The word "miracle" is not inherently Christian - far from it! It simply means a wonder - something wondrous to behold. And don't blame Wikipedia for this one, it's the literal meaning of the word: The Greek thauma means "miracle, wonder, marvel," etc.It's not just a "popular definition." It is as inherent in the word as "wonder" is in "wonderful."
I hear that you're wanting to make a distinction, and to have a word that means something like "magick that is not dependent on Atziluth."
"For theurgy the evoked effect could be for example: Water is turned to wine because the 'son of God' did it."
<sigh> That's awfully narrow. You're stuck in the idea of theurgy being a prayer, etc. That's very narrow, and excludes 99% of what is rightly counts as theurgy. If the definition were indeed that narrow, then I'd see why you wanted a term for everything else."
A 'wonder' does not have to draw its source immediately from the Divine. There are many natural things which are wonderful but not directly there right now because of recent Divine activity although all things stem from atziluth originally.
Did Jesus turn water into wine via theurgy or thaumaturgy do you think?
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@axismundi said
"A 'wonder' does not have to draw its source immediately from the Divine."
I didn't say it does. I did say that "wonder" is literally what we mean by "miracle" (and I did say that I don't think there's magick separate from the divine - though that's admittedly a matter of definition).
"Did Jesus turn water into wine via theurgy or thaumaturgy do you think?"
Side-stepping the question of whether he existed... I think he did it via oenology.
And what I've otherwise been trying to say is that there is no difference between theurgy and thaumaturgy. The words of different roots but, in practice, mean exactly the same thing.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@axismundi said
"A 'wonder' does not have to draw its source immediately from the Divine."I didn't say it does. I did say that "wonder" is literally what we mean by "miracle" (and I did say that I don't think there's magick separate from the divine - though that's admittedly a matter of definition).
"Did Jesus turn water into wine via theurgy or thaumaturgy do you think?"
Side-stepping the question of whether he existed... I think he did it via oenology.
And what I've otherwise been trying to say is that there is no difference between theurgy and thaumaturgy. The words of different roots but, in practice, mean exactly the same thing."
The source of power for Magic and for sorcery seems different to me if theurgy and thaumaturgy do not indicate the difference then what does I wonder.
To ferment the wine in such a short time perhaps Jesus had magic yeast.
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@axismundi said
"To ferment the wine in such a short time perhaps Jesus had magic yeast."
Or perhaps its fiction. Or perhaps he'd invented white wine and they just thought (at a glance) that it was water. Or perhaps they were too damned drunk to tell the difference (which seems to match the story).
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@axismundi said
"I get the feeling that there are a few people here who have proficiency and could perhaps be termed adepts.
Crowley as far as I can tell did achieve evocation to visible appearance with goetia for example. But there are a number of cases where he had the spirit posses a person who stood in the triangle as medium, a Bartzabel working springs to mind.
Personally I prefer not to have a human medium however evocation to visible appearance does require some effort I find.
I would be interested to hear the views of both those that have done this and the ideas of those that have not."
Making a fluid condenser (you will need a large quantity for one evocation) will help to produce manifestion. You will need ye olde fondue pot and heat the fluid condenser so that a thick steam is produced. If you make the condenser properly the spirit should manifest perfectly.
Using a medium is best, but if you do not know what you are doing you can cause great harm to yourself, the medium, and the spirit. Make sure you can banish and exorcise ANY spirit that enters your temple, before trying to perform such a feat. I would master the fluid condensor method before trying to cause a person to become possessed by a spirit.
As for the Bartezbel working, I would not have tied up the medium as Crowley did. MOST spirits do not like to be restrained and can cause harm to everyone even if physically restrained. Swearing spirits to oaths and pacts before performing such a feat is recommended.
Rocky
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The fondue pot suggestion is very useful thank you.
I usually use dittany of Crete and a fan employed by my glamorous assistant (wife), along with some appropriate oil evaporated in the triangle. Making a load of accumulator and evaporating it using a fondue pot in the triangle of art sounds more practical and probably more economic.
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@axismundi said
"The fondue pot suggestion is very useful thank you.
I usually use dittany of Crete and a fan employed by my glamorous assistant (wife), along with some appropriate oil evaporated in the triangle. Making a load of accumulator and evaporating it using a fondue pot in the triangle of art sounds more practical and probably more economic."
I would use a high proof grain spirit to "stretch" the dittany of Crete. It will also create a nice cloud of steam that should last the duration of the evocation.
NOTE: You only need to use the fondue pot at the actual point in the ceremony that you call the spirit. From personal experience Lavendar works very well for inducing manifestation. Even if you simply have a lavendar plant in the temple it will aide in manifestation.
Rocky
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I am thinking about this fondue idea and adding a magisterie or if I have enough a few drops of spagyric quintessence to the accumulator in the fondue pot.
Taking this to its logical extreme would visible appearance be more pronounced if even more potent Alchemical products were utilised I wonder.
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"Taking this to its logical extreme would visible appearance be more pronounced if even more potent Alchemical products were utilised I wonder."
Yes.
There are more methods than just the fondue pot. I have been considering writing a book outlining these various methods that, to my knowledge, are previously unpublished. I have recipes for magic lamps that cause manifestation and many other projects. The spirits should me many ways of working with them before I became an houngan and the methods became, well, unnecessary.
