Armorum Dagger and Wand proportions
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
PS - I think you asked about my dagger (or was that somebody else's recent conversation?). FWIW, here's a picture.
[attachment=0:1pr4uy1t]<!-- ia0 -->Dagger25.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment:1pr4uy1t]
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - I think you asked about my dagger (or was that somebody else's recent conversation?)."
May have been somebody else, but, thanks for sharing! That's beautiful. Armorum says the hilt should be gilt; is that gold leafed or painted yellow (the luster is a bit hard to say for sure, but it looks like yellow).
Did you make it yourself or you found an artisan, as with your Wand?
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
By the by, has there been a discussion here, or do you have some insights, about why Crowley changed the Air weapon from a sword in Book Four part 2 to the dagger of Armorum? In 4 pt. 2 he has the dagger representing Mercury, as part of the triad with the scourge and chain, but I've not seen an explanation for why the switch.
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
@sk4p said
"Armorum says the hilt should be gilt; is that gold leafed or painted yellow (the luster is a bit hard to say for sure, but it looks like yellow)."
It was originally gold leaf. I later committed it to being a straight-out Air Dagger in the classic sense and repainted it.
"Did you make it yourself or you found an artisan, as with your Wand?"
Neither. It was made by Wilfred Smith. Helen (Parsons) Smith gave it to me. I carved the word and gilded the handle. (The handle is oak.)
There is an old tradition that the dagger must be won in battle. With affection that likely will be understood be others who knew Helen long, I've often said that maintaining and surviving a relationship with Helen was not unlike battle.
The "piece of pure steel" ultimately is refined Mars-force, i.e., will-force, which must be beaten, ground, sharpened, and polished in the course of one's ordeals.
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
@sk4p said
"By the by, has there been a discussion here, or do you have some insights, about why Crowley changed the Air weapon from a sword in Book Four part 2 to the dagger of Armorum? In 4 pt. 2 he has the dagger representing Mercury, as part of the triad with the scourge and chain, but I've not seen an explanation for why the switch."
The Mercury dagger you mention is part of a triad of implements (plus oil) used for the three Principles in the A.'.A.'. 1=10 initiation. ("The scourge, the dagger, the chain...") Book IV, Part 2 is substantially the handbook for Liber 671. - I think the best "because" to your question is that the dagger was being reserved for special duty in Book IV (the threesome), so he had to have a different symbol to discuss for Air.
Aside from compatible sizes, I think the main issue is that the intellect should not be disproportionately large, nor the Ruach seem to dominate the rest. There's one place (I'm not sure where... Book IV? MWT?) that Crowley wrote that the greater magician would choose the dagger. Classically, the sword is an implement not of Air, but of Mars (and my swords are all consecrated thus).
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
Having recently read through and did my best at Liber Pyramidos, that makes total sense, but I never thought of 4 pt. 2 as a handbook for it. The more you know!
And sword = Mars makes sense; of course the GD handled the distinction that way. (Which is why I wondered why Crowley had temporarily gone the other way.)
That dagger of yours has quite a "pedigree", then. I bet it works well
And thanks as always.
Edit: "handbook for T'raa", I'm sure, not Pyramidos, but the triad is in Pyramidos and that's where I know it.
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
You surely noticed that I pointed out in Pearls that the classic temple floor plan in Book IV is the 671 floor plan
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
@Jim Eshelman said
"You surely noticed that I pointed out in Pearls that the classic temple floor plan in Book IV is the 671 floor plan
"Years of studying Thelemic magick, albeit solitary and without good guidance, and I'm still surprised by things like how universally the Formula of the Neophyte can be applied.
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
Also:
@Jim Eshelman said
"PS - I think you asked about my dagger (or was that somebody else's recent conversation?). FWIW, here's a picture."
Your Word to represent the Universe was cheth, as in the letter, "a wall, fence, or enclosure" ? Good one (and 418, of course).
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Jim (and friends!),
Following up in reverse order on my question about the Cup design, I ask a couple small points about the Dagger:
Let the Zelator take a piece of pure steel, and beat it, grind it, sharpen it, and polish it, according to the art of the swordsmith.
Let him further take a piece of oak wood, and carve a hilt. The length shall be eight inches.I read this as the overall length of the dagger should be 8", as opposed to the blade or the hilt separately, but am I missing anything in thinking so? So an 8" piece of steel would be a full-tang dagger, so we're really more into "boot knife" territory than what is usually labeled a "dagger" today, correct?
There's one little subtlety in the Wand's description which throws me a bit:
Let the Philosophus take a rod of copper, of length eight inches and diameter half an inch.
Let him fashion about the top a triple flame of gold.Note here that the rod is 8" and then we fashion a triple flame of gold, which might well add a bit to the length, whereas the 8" is mentioned after the dagger's hilt (and implicitly the tang).
A field.