LBRP Divine Name Sequence
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@Hermitas said
"Yes. Sort of - it depends on whether or not one assumes that the LRP's directions are unassociated with the directions on the Cube of Space. I'm not completely certain of their connection yet (though I have flirted with the idea and so far like it), so I'll just say yes. Different."
I'm unaware of anything associating the Divine Names to the quarters of the Cube of Space (and, obviously, the elements of the archangels are not thus attributed.
From the other things you've said, you might want to observe that any ritual that has you charging east, south, west, and north in sequence with Cube of Space attributions stimulates four chakras in sequence, from throat downward. With the sensitivity you mentioned, if you are layering in these other attributions, it is very likely you would be reacting to this phenomenon.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I've known the formula for nearly 30 years and it has almost never even crossed my mind when doing the ritual (or almost any other time, unless questions like this arise)."
Then for me the relevant question becomes: What was your experience of the ritual before the answer was given to you?
The fact that you've known it for 30 years and it almost never crosses your mind speaks to the fact that, once your mind has recognized the truth -- once the correct seed has been planted -- that part of your mind will consider its work done and the actual power of the ritual can do its work of watering the seed. Once the correct seed is in the ground, we don't have to keep checking in on it to make sure that we actually buried a seed and not a pebble. We can attend to other things and trust that the water we are sprinkling on the soil every morning is doing its job, even if no sprouts show for months on end. Once the truth is known, then we can rely on faith.
Relying on faith ahead of that point ("This ritual, done by rote, does its job.") tickles that part of the mind that wants to know why it's doing what it's doing. For anyone who doesn't have the possibility of entering the Second Order of TOT in this lifetime, it's an answer that the mind now knows it likely will never get and so doubt creeps in. One might turn to published accounts at which point one will find a plethora of different explanations. From memory right now, I know I've read those that correlate the names to the Archangels, to various sephiroth as one spins and rotates around the tree, to a deep and complicated mathematical formula. Following my own inner guide, I've landed on a very useful building of the Cube of Space which does, as you mention above, focus on the chakras from Venus to Mars during this particular section.
But... not having a definite answer as to what these vibrations are meant to be accomplishing means that, unless I've already worked myself up to an enflamed point (not a typical occurrence with a preliminary banishing ritual, though it does happen on occasion) the mind takes over. The mind wants to know what it's doing and why. The mind won't be banished by a simple: "Have faith."
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really do have these hierarchies of information. It rings eerily similar to the Christian Church during much of its history, where the ruling class had access to the Scriptures but kept them from others. It was a crime to translate the Bible from Latin to another language because they didn't want the common folk to be able to learn from it directly. It had to go through the church leaders. People were executed precisely because they translated the Bible into the vernacular.
What I like about Thelema is that the bulk of information is made accessible to all. I don't think secret knowledge has a place in it, unless it's something that serves a purpose in being secret until a time when it can be revealed, e.g., initiation rituals. Why are we still trying to withhold information from the common people? Haven't we done away with such draconian ideas?
In this case, I know Jim has made a promise... But how awful that the people who told him made him swear he'd only give the info to people in one particular man-made institution!
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@Luce said
"What I like about Thelema is that the bulk of information is made accessible to all. I don't think secret knowledge has a place in it, unless it's something that serves a purpose in being secret until a time when it can be revealed, e.g., initiation rituals. Why are we still trying to withhold information from the common people? Haven't we done away with such draconian ideas?"
Just to be clear, there is no necessary connection between Thelema and the Lesser Pentagram Rituals. They predate it by a long shot and hold no place in its canon. As Jim mentioned above:
@Jim Eshelman said
"Temple of Thelema, in addition to drawing on A.'.A.'. roots of its founders, also has other contributing threads, including some at least a millennium older than anything the world has known as A.'.A.'.. This particular Qabbalistic knowledge descends through that older tradition. "
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"Just to be clear, there is no necessary connection between Thelema and the Lesser Pentagram Rituals. They predate it by a long shot and hold no place in its canon."
I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites. I think it is the duty of thelemites to make all spiritual knowledge available to all people, except where secrecy is warranted because keeping something secret will either help the person (example: initiation rituals) or keep them from harm (example: not teaching powerful rituals to newbies). Now, you are all more thelemic than me, so you're free to disagree and you'll probably be right.
Having magical secrets held by people of a certain level should have died with the old aeon. The Law is for all, and by extension, I think so is all spiritual knowledge. We should want the spiritual evolution of humanity and should turn none away. I don't think there is a single spiritual or magical fact that I wouldn't tell someone, unless it fits either of the two criterion listed above. Now, I don't possess very many magical secrets and I'll be the first to admit that. But I hope that when I do, I'll be willing to pass them on to sincere aspirants.
Again, what I'm saying doesn't apply to Jim, because he is withholding information due to a promise. But, there are many other areas where Jim won't share certain things, saying they are private to TOT. That troubles me, because unless it is either to protect the person or to help him or her, I can't see a reason for it (of course, that doesn't mean such a reason doesn't exist). Why withhold truth that could help the evolution of humanity? And again, how is it different from medieval church leaders concealing things?
I strongly feel that thelemites especially shouldn't keep such magical secrets. Now, Jim publishes A LOT and answers MANY questions, but what is the purpose of certain methods and practices being made available solely to TOT students? Why limit spiritual truth (even the smallest nugget) to a man-made organization? Is it just to keep TOT "special" and desirable? Because if it were all known, TOT wouldn't seem as mysterious and powerful? Again, this whole post needs to be couched in conditional language because it assumes there is no good reason for keeping methods and information secret. Maybe there IS such a reason, but from an outside perspective, it sure wafts of an old-aeon keep-the-knowledge-from-the-profane attitude.
But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity. I'm not suggesting everything needs to be published and open... But when a sincere aspirant shows dedication and searched for hours on end to uncover a fact, why not throw the dog a bone?
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Hmm that does make me think. Is that the reason for some secrets, I wonder? In case they fall into the wrong hands? Mind you, could an organization really adequitely discern the moral quality of an applicant? Especially when the key moral adage is do what thou wilt?
Perhaps it's something like that... But that doesn't really explain concealing methods. For example, I was seeking information on here about how to increase my visual abilities. I was given one method involving colors and Hebrew letters, but I was told that the other methods were secret to the TOT. In a case like that, it seems the other methods are just helpful ways to succeed in a basic magical task. It doesn't seem like some dangerous secret that, if put in the wrong hands, could cause chaos (the bad form of chaos, heh).
I would love to have access to these methods. I struggle a lot with really feeling like I'm doing something when I practice. In a lot of ways, I feel like I'm doing all the right actions, but it feels "pretend" a lot of the time. I could really use some from-thr-ground-up training, and TOT seems to offer that. But I'm so far away from TOT that it will never be possible to capitalize on these training methods. I want magick to really work. I'm sick of feeling like I'm just pretending. And this frustration is only exacerbated by the thought that there is information out there that could help me but is being concerned.
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Yeah. It kinda sucks, but... I don't know what to tell you. I'm in the same boat.
Stick with it.
You program you unconscious mind with the rudiments, and, yes, you use the magic of pretend. But then one day, your unconscious shows you what it can unfold from what you've been giving it. And that's one form of "inner instruction." It's not just all about the self-consciousness and its methods of getting info.
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@Luce said
"
I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites."Thelemites keep all sorts of secrets, magic and otherwise. If you think that's unfair then reveal the true name, address, and credit card number of the individual behind the "Luce" mask and maybe we can start a dialogue. This particular topic is just special pleading.
There is no "should" in Do what thou wilt.
Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here.
You've been tossed several very meaty bones in this thread. I know because I'm chewing them over as well. It's your choice what you do with them.
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@Luce said
"But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity."
For many things... this isn't true outside the context of the interconnected system. Many things, in isolation, are useless, but as part of an interconnected system, delivered in a particular sequence in a particular way... they have a different power.
The most obvious example, of course, is the Temple of Thelema initiations ceremonies. To disclose them openly would be to substantially remove their usefulness.
Most knowledge (maybe all knowledge) is completely arbitrary, and only gains value in its particular relationship to other knowledge. (The whole of knowledge is simply a self-sustaining pattern of relationships. Remove a piece from context and it is no longer clear what any of it means.)
It is for the evolution of humanity that I've given more than half my life to creating a single system that can survive me which has the ability to produce this effect for those who pass through it. Meanwhile, we do what we can for those who cannot.
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Thanks for your reply, Jim.
"Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here."
I was aware of the fourth power of the Sphinx as I wrote my post. I decided it didn't provide a complete explanation for this secrecy. Btw, I didn't see myself get "shot down." Try not to turn this into a popularity contest. I'm trying to have a discussion here, in the thread that I started, I might remind you (albeit I'm bitching, I'll give you that). It's really not that off-topic anyway, seeing as the thread is about one specific secret and now I'm talking about secrets in general.
By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused.
"This particular topic is just special pleading."
Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position.
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@Luce said
"By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused."
You might want to go back and read that post again. Jim wasn't telling you what you should or shouldn't do. He was recognizing that you were veering off-course from question to statement to discussion which was taking your thought process dangerously close to something that he would be obligated to delete based on his personal vow. You are free to post whatever you will. He is free to delete it. Fight like brothers. That's Thelema. There is no should.
He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done.
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"This particular topic is just special pleading."Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position."
The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading.
In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all."
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The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading. "Now I'm not entirely sure you know what that term means, but I guess it doesn't matter.
"In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all.""
Touché. That was more of a poetic device than a proof text though. I stand by my statement that Thelema shouldn't conceal spiritual truth unless it's for one of two reasons given above.
"He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done."
I rest my case.
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Don't get stuck in this, man.
Should or should not, it just is.
One of the foremost scholars in the world provides a website for us to come learn what he can tell us for free. Let that be good enough.
He doesn't even know us. But he's tolerated my grumpy ass for years.
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Both of you are misreading my post. I've said time and time again that I don't hold anything at all against Jim for not posting the secret. He promised, and I respect that. I've also made it clear how grateful I am for all the things he does post. Jim has no obligation to share anything. Moreover, I'm a "guest" here in that I'm on the TOT forum without actually being in TOT. I see that as an amazing privledge.
I thought it'd be interesting to segue this thread into a discussion about secret-keeping in general. I wanted to hear what people's thoughts were about it. I'm done complaining and I was curious on the issue. But being met with the same thelemic drivel is definitely off-putting. I'm tired of the many watered-down thought-terminating clichés that plague discussions on Thelema. Thelema literally has its own special class of abused phrases that ought to be blacklisted.
But I guess I'll let this thread die now. If anyone has any thoughts about the reason behind privledged information (besides the two I've mentioned, that Jim echoed) I'd like to hear them. I truly am intellectually curious on the reason that some methods are kept secret, if those methods do not fit the two criterion mentioned already (protecting an adept from harm and withholding an initiation ritual or magical word so it's more powerful later). This isn't me bitching anymore; I'm legitimately interested on this issue, and I think it's related enough to my OP to not be off-topic. But if people are going to interpret everything I say as complaining and ingratitude, I'd rather not hear it.
TL;DL: Everyone, stop implying I'm ungrateful. I am indebted to Jim for his help. I'm interested in continuing a discussion concerning the reason and morality behind magical secret keeping. If no one else is interested (or if the discussion has become too emotional and can't continue healthily) I'll happily let this thread die.