Do you believe that the Secret Chiefs of the A∴A∴ possess all truth?
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Crowley's description of the A∴A∴ in Liber 33 is clearly derived from the works of von Eckartshausen, rather than being original to Thelema itself—and it honestly sounds like a conspiracy theory! Moreover, in light of Gödel's Theorem, it's impossible for anyone to possess all truth. No one can...
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Liber 33 is indeed derived from Eckartshausen’s Cloud Upon the Sanctuary. The most certain proof of this is that the author says as much at the very top of the document. Liber 33 is a Thelemic version of a classic of occult literature, revised for the New Aeon. It is not derived from “the works of von Eckartshausen”, it’s a mild rewriting of the first chapter of a single book by that author.
I am untrained in mathematics and my comprehension of Gödel’s Theorem is very limited, so I do not see the connection between the truth spoken of in Liber 33 and the mathematics of Gödel. Could you explain more clearly what you are saying, as if to a layman?
I don’t see where in Liber 33 it states that the Secret Chiefs are omniscient? It leads me to wonder if you assume that “truth” as used in this document refers to something more mundane than is intended.
There is an excellent conversation to be had about what is meant by truth, what is meant by the Spirit of Wisdom, what is meant by “perfect knowledge of nature and of humanity”, etc. Alas, your tone clearly indicates that you are not looking for a conversation.
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Liber 33 is indeed derived from Eckartshausen’s Cloud Upon the Sanctuary. The most certain proof of this is that the author says as much at the very top of the document. Liber 33 is a Thelemic version of a classic of occult literature, revised for the New Aeon. It is not derived from “the works of von Eckartshausen”, it’s a mild rewriting of the first chapter of a single book by that author.
I am untrained in mathematics and my comprehension of Gödel’s Theorem is very limited, so I do not see the connection between the truth spoken of in Liber 33 and the mathematics of Gödel. Could you explain more clearly what you are saying, as if to a layman?
I don’t see where in Liber 33 it states that the Secret Chiefs are omniscient? It leads me to wonder if you assume that “truth” as used in this document refers to something more mundane than is intended.
There is an excellent conversation to be had about what is meant by truth, what is meant by the Spirit of Wisdom, what is meant by “perfect knowledge of nature and of humanity”, etc. Alas, your tone clearly indicates that you are not looking for a conversation.
@zeph Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Sorry, English isn’t my native language. Maybe the translation caused some distortion, and came across as impolite in the post.
When I was browsing Liber 33, I was shocked: does it really claim that someone knows all the truth about nature?!
That would mean that for any question—whether scientific, spiritual, or mathematical—there is already a set answer. Humanity wouldn’t need to explore anything, and there would be no room for development (since the Secret Chiefs already know everything)…
This seems to conflict with the “scientific illuminism” advocated by the A∴A∴.
I just wonder if this makes the Thelemic system too closed? After all, that’s a huge claim!
What exactly does “truth” include? The truth value of every mathematical proposition? Tomorrow’s lottery numbers?
Love is law, love under will.
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93
Does Liber XXXIII suggest omniscient humans? Yes, but only in a qualified initiatory sense. It suggests an “interior Order” or hidden school that possesses the key to all mystery, preserves the mysteries of nature, and teaches “perfect knowledge of nature and humanity.” But it does not straightforwardly say that every physical human being becomes Godlike and personally knows every fact in the universe. [1]
Does The Cloud Upon the Sanctuary suggest something similar? Yes — even more explicitly, but in Christian mystical language. It speaks of an invisible interior Church whose school preserves “all the mysteries of God and of nature” and whose object is “perfect knowledge of God, of nature, and of humanity.” [2]
Are the Secret Chiefs always physical? No. In Crowley’s own later words, absolutely not. In Magick Without Tears, he says of the Secret Chiefs: “They may be incarnate or discarnate: it is a matter of Their convenience.” He also allows for ordinary living men being sent as agents, and leaves open whether beings like Aiwaz or Ab-ul-Diz are human, angelic, or beyond this plane. [3]
Liber XXXIII describes an “interior Order,” scattered throughout the world, governed by one truth and one spirit. It says this community has a school where all who thirst for knowledge are instructed by the Spirit of Wisdom, where “all the mysteries of nature are preserved,” and where “perfect knowledge of nature and of humanity” is taught. That is the strongest “omniscience-adjacent” line in the text. [4]
But the text also limits this. It does not say: “each member personally knows everything.” It says the community possesses the keys, the school, the mysteries, and the transmission. Even more tellingly, it says “the greatest man of his times, the chief himself, does not always know all the members.” That is a huge clue: this is not absolute omniscience, because even the chief does not always know the whole membership.
So I would read Liber XXXIII as teaching collective esoteric omniscience or perfected access to wisdom, not individual all-knowingness. It is more like: the Order holds the total map; the fit initiate is joined to the chain; knowledge is available according to capacity and necessity.
Crowley’s ending sharpens this: the illuminated community is “absolutely in possession of the key to all mystery,” knows “the centre and source of all nature,” and “counts its members from more than one world.”
That last phrase matters. Crowley’s version does not reduce the Order to living human teachers; it includes trans-physical membership. But because it is “scattered throughout the world” and its members can meet and recognize each other, it also does not exclude incarnate humans.
Are humans omniscient in these texts? Not absolutely, but potentially “centralized” in knowledge. Liber XXXIII says the interior society is in possession of the key to all mystery and knows the center and source of nature. That is much stronger than ordinary genius. But it also says people must become “fit,” that admission is real rather than formal, and that the unripe can see or read nothing in the interior.
The Cloud says the same through “inner sensorium” language. When that faculty opens, faith passes into vision; the person perceives metaphysical realities directly. [5]
It also says command over nature, intercourse with upper worlds, and visible communion with the Lord may be granted. That is a truly illuminating sentence. [6]
But neither document really says “every perfected human is omniscient as God is omniscient.” The knowledge is mediated by illumination, union, capacity, degree, and function.
Crowley’s later writings make this less ambiguous. In Magick Without Tears, he says those conducting A∴A∴ should be at least Masters of the Temple or Magi, and that the Secret Chiefs possess control of a subtle magical energy able to cause change according to Will. [7]
He then describes their powers as staggering: they may influence anything from a small act to a political movement or world-war, according to plans beyond ordinary human comprehension. But when he asks whether they are “men, in the usual sense,” his answer is the key: they may be incarnate or discarnate as convenient. So, in Crowley’s own view, Secret Chiefs are not “always non-physical.” Some may be embodied; some may be disembodied; some may be beings beyond the plane who temporarily assume human appearance or faculties.
His biographical note on the Master Therion also says the Secret Chiefs had “praeter-human attainments” and power to direct events on the planet. “Praeter-human” is the right Crowley word here: beyond ordinary human capacity, not necessarily nonhuman, and not necessarily permanently bodiless. [8]
Regarding Kurt Gödel and his Incompleteness Theorems, I am not qualified to speak in mathematical terms but applying a layman's eye to the texts and attempting to extract the essence of them, I would say this:
Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorems apply to formal axiomatic systems strong enough to express arithmetic. Crowley’s “Secret Chiefs” claim is not that sort of thing. It is an initiatory, metaphysical, experiential, and possibly historical claim about beings or adepts with superior authority and capacity. So Gödel neither proves nor disproves them.
Gödel warns us that “complete knowledge” cannot simply mean “a closed, consistent, mechanical system that proves all truths.” So if someone reads Liber XXXIII as saying the Secret Chiefs possess a perfect formal encyclopedia of all truths, Gödel gives good reason to reject that reading.
But Crowley’s idea is different. His “perfect knowledge” is closer to knowledge from the center, or access to the key of a mystery, or mastery of causal-magical principles — not a claim that an incarnate human can recursively enumerate every truth of arithmetic, history, physics, and metaphysics. In fact, Crowley’s own line that the chief may not know all members prevents a crude omniscience reading.
No, Gödel does not disprove human Secret Chiefs. He only disproves a particular rationalist caricature of them: the Secret Chief as a complete, self-verifying, mechanical formal system. Crowley is speaking of something else — a hidden initiatory authority, possibly incarnate or discarnate, possessing extraordinary knowledge and power, but not necessarily literal omniscience in the mathematical or theological sense.
Gödel kills the fantasy of the Perfect Rulebook. He does not kill the possibility of the Master.
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My tendency is toward simplification. The other respondents have directly discussed your textual questions. I am more interested in the meta-question.
- If we accept that consciousness exists in multiple layers or modes of being;
- If we accept that consciousness is participatory, such that every individual consciousness is an expression of, and contains an enfolded relationship to, the whole of consciousness;
- If we accept that by thought, meditation, ritual, and/or other means the individual can alter the degree to which an individual consciously participates in that whole;
- If we accept that sustained practice can stabilize access to progressively more inclusive modes of consciousness;
- If we accept that the Third Order represents the stabilization of human consciousness at its most universal mode;
Then it follows that the Third Order does not possess “all truth” as accumulated information, but participates directly in the totality of human truth.
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I think that the Third Order possesses "all truth" in the sense that every symbol contains every symbolic meaning associated with it. Since every symbol means everything it does at all times and at all places, symbolic rigidity loses importance. When we wear a cross, what are we really saying? Balance of elemental forces? Jesus? The Sun? What about all of the negative connotations that come with the cross? What about the pentagram, which has an equally diverse range of meanings (Satanic, Pagan, Pythagorean, etc.)? Of course we are saying all of the above, as each person projects their own meaning and coexists with our intended meaning!
In the sense that a symbol is a compression of information and container of associations, the Third Order can manipulate any symbol throughout reality, and therefore "all truth", since all information can be contained in symbolic form. This does not mean that the Third Order "is" entirely conscious of "all truth" at all moments in spacetime. Any symbolic manipulation can cause changes not necessarily accounted for, since 93% of any symbol's meaning remains in the Collective Unconscious at any given moment. The simpler the symbol, or the more it contains, the more general and vague the meaning appears.
So, we can certainly argue that the Third Order contains all information (and therefore "all truth") simply because we can create a symbol to compress the entirety of Creation into, such as the Monas Hieroglyphica. But that symbol doesn't have much practical value to us humans, as it appears too abstract to create any specific change.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if the Third Order "is" one entity that knows "all truth." If the Third Order comprises a collective of entities, some incarnate and some discarnate, then theoretically, no individual in the Third Order knows "all truth." However, the collective of entities as a whole has access to "all truth" and different entities may act in different situations with varying degrees of access to "all truth" (participating as @augur put it!). For example, some theorize that angels contain more information than human consciousness seems capable of holding. In that sense, the angels may have a wider area of influence than perhaps some of the humans acting in the Third Order. Collectively, however, the totality of entities seem capable of influencing all of Creation. This appears functionally the same as the Third Order being one big entity that contains "all truth."
What do we even mean by "all truth"? Do we mean all knowledge that accurately represents reality? Do we mean those abstract concepts that continually show themselves to have practical value? Etc.
If we mean the "real" events that transpire across all of spacetime, then there seems to be an underlying premise of pre-destination. For the Third Order to know precisely what will happen thousands of years into the future in the realm of Assiah, then Creation already follows a map with a final destination of some sort, and everything must happen the way the Third Order chooses otherwise we might fail to achieve that end. Perhaps this "is" why it can seem like a conspiracy theory? Nonetheless, this interpretation seems to be a control fantasy, as the ego finds it easier to believe that everything "is" under control (whether by "good" or "bad" entities), than to believe that everything "is" chaos and accidental.
If the Divine Mind "is" some great mad scientist simply performing an experiment to see how things unfold, then the future appears much less certain. In fact, I find that 100% certainty doesn't exist for humanity (and that alone makes me hesitant to even worry about what the Third Order does and doesn't know). If the Divine Mind said, "Here's everything, now let's press play and see how it unfolds!", then the Third Order becomes a particular pattern of consciousness expressing high coherence and low "noise". All of those streams of information that bring more of the Divine into existence come from the Third Order (perhaps filtering down through diverse states of consciousness before reaching us). This makes the Third Order a structural term inherent in the system, as this kind of information (whether Gnosis or some other piece that inspires an individual to express the Divine) needs to come from somewhere, no? As an inherent structure within Creation, the Third Order functions less as some grand conspiracy, and more as a set of potentials we can choose to tune into.
In other words, the Third Order contains "all truth" in the sense that it can access any point in spacetime, hopefully to create more potential for joy (Nuit's greatest gift to humanity) in the world
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I think that the Third Order possesses "all truth" in the sense that every symbol contains every symbolic meaning associated with it. Since every symbol means everything it does at all times and at all places, symbolic rigidity loses importance. When we wear a cross, what are we really saying? Balance of elemental forces? Jesus? The Sun? What about all of the negative connotations that come with the cross? What about the pentagram, which has an equally diverse range of meanings (Satanic, Pagan, Pythagorean, etc.)? Of course we are saying all of the above, as each person projects their own meaning and coexists with our intended meaning!
In the sense that a symbol is a compression of information and container of associations, the Third Order can manipulate any symbol throughout reality, and therefore "all truth", since all information can be contained in symbolic form. This does not mean that the Third Order "is" entirely conscious of "all truth" at all moments in spacetime. Any symbolic manipulation can cause changes not necessarily accounted for, since 93% of any symbol's meaning remains in the Collective Unconscious at any given moment. The simpler the symbol, or the more it contains, the more general and vague the meaning appears.
So, we can certainly argue that the Third Order contains all information (and therefore "all truth") simply because we can create a symbol to compress the entirety of Creation into, such as the Monas Hieroglyphica. But that symbol doesn't have much practical value to us humans, as it appears too abstract to create any specific change.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if the Third Order "is" one entity that knows "all truth." If the Third Order comprises a collective of entities, some incarnate and some discarnate, then theoretically, no individual in the Third Order knows "all truth." However, the collective of entities as a whole has access to "all truth" and different entities may act in different situations with varying degrees of access to "all truth" (participating as @augur put it!). For example, some theorize that angels contain more information than human consciousness seems capable of holding. In that sense, the angels may have a wider area of influence than perhaps some of the humans acting in the Third Order. Collectively, however, the totality of entities seem capable of influencing all of Creation. This appears functionally the same as the Third Order being one big entity that contains "all truth."
What do we even mean by "all truth"? Do we mean all knowledge that accurately represents reality? Do we mean those abstract concepts that continually show themselves to have practical value? Etc.
If we mean the "real" events that transpire across all of spacetime, then there seems to be an underlying premise of pre-destination. For the Third Order to know precisely what will happen thousands of years into the future in the realm of Assiah, then Creation already follows a map with a final destination of some sort, and everything must happen the way the Third Order chooses otherwise we might fail to achieve that end. Perhaps this "is" why it can seem like a conspiracy theory? Nonetheless, this interpretation seems to be a control fantasy, as the ego finds it easier to believe that everything "is" under control (whether by "good" or "bad" entities), than to believe that everything "is" chaos and accidental.
If the Divine Mind "is" some great mad scientist simply performing an experiment to see how things unfold, then the future appears much less certain. In fact, I find that 100% certainty doesn't exist for humanity (and that alone makes me hesitant to even worry about what the Third Order does and doesn't know). If the Divine Mind said, "Here's everything, now let's press play and see how it unfolds!", then the Third Order becomes a particular pattern of consciousness expressing high coherence and low "noise". All of those streams of information that bring more of the Divine into existence come from the Third Order (perhaps filtering down through diverse states of consciousness before reaching us). This makes the Third Order a structural term inherent in the system, as this kind of information (whether Gnosis or some other piece that inspires an individual to express the Divine) needs to come from somewhere, no? As an inherent structure within Creation, the Third Order functions less as some grand conspiracy, and more as a set of potentials we can choose to tune into.
In other words, the Third Order contains "all truth" in the sense that it can access any point in spacetime, hopefully to create more potential for joy (Nuit's greatest gift to humanity) in the world
@jjones
93
Well said. I was unsure how to address the word
conspiracyand you did a grand job of it.Here's to more
joyandlove...love under will.93 93/93
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