Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelemites
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@Kingsolomon said
"i'm interested in runic and egyptian kabbalah red fezz,. it's the same as the hebrew kabbalah, but I have to find the names and where they fit in the tree of life and how they fit, and how to vibrate the names you want to vibrate while practicing kabbalah, maybe you might have a resource for me"
I don't know if there is a runic Kabballah necessarily, but the Joy Of Satan people seem to be saying so. We do know for pretty certain that the Qabalah does come from Egypt prior to the Jewish Kabballah and that the Jews probably got it from the Greeks who got it from Egypt. Interestingly, there were some tradelines that ran through the frozen north part of Europe where there just happens to be runic inscriptions all over the place and a religion which is still being pieced together which is remarkably similar to what we know of the Qabalah. There are some fair differences, though, too: the trees are not identical, for example.
Your best bet would be to check out the YahooGroups. There is one dedicated to the Runes which is full of academics and people to whom the runes are part of their heritage and culture. One woman I met there wrote some ground-breaking book about the runes as an academic (University) text that was about 2.5 inches thick and cost about $100 if I remember correctly. This is the most up-to-date source of accurate information about the Runes that I know of.
I wouldn't take too much stock in what American "rune experts" claim. Apparently, Stephen/Edred is off the mark quite a bit... and he is generally considered one of the foremost experts on the runes in these English-speaking parts. Check out the YahooGroups, but if I was you, I would NOT mention the word "Kabballah." They're likely to politely dismiss your questions as foolish cross-breeding or something.
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I understand why Jim would not be interested in that. He already knows the kabbalah.
That Joy of Satan is quite goofed up..
The only legit satanic group I've seen is <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.luciferianwitchcraft.com/main">www.luciferianwitchcraft.com/main</a><!-- w -->
they promote the books of Michael W. Ford. Who.. LOL Ironically was a member of the OTO.
These people.. Thelema is the truest source of all spiritual contact.
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Yeah, the sort of people often interested in the runes kind of freaks me out. A lot of them seem to be pretty into Nazi ideas. Some, like Stephen Flowers, keep a certain distance, but given the books he's published about the Nazi occult practices, it's hard to believe he's not pro-Nazi.
And what I really don't get about these people is they seem to think they're on the stronger side (side of Satan, that is)... but, like, if that were true, would Satanists be hiding in a closet right now? If Satan was pro-Hitler (as JOS / Black Sun website listed above seems to think), doesn't it say something that Hitler lost? And, according to them, the Jews and their Jewish magick have the world wrapped around their finger! To me, that indicates, if nothing else, that the "Satan" people are on the weaker side, not the stronger side.
The little bit I read about Crowley's interest in Hitler and the little bit I've read about Crowley's readiness and even delight in sadism, dishonesty and violence turned me off quite a bit at the time(s), so I just can't imagine joining a group who's whole ambition in life is to help Satan fight a war against the Jews. Then what??? Everlasting ultimate satisfaction?! I seriously doubt that's possible with a mindset hellbent on war and revenge. If you're into Jew-hating, war and honorable death (in battle), why not just become a nutty terrorist? Seems about as fulfilling. But, no! Of course not! Because those people are semitic! They can only be happy if they are aryan bullies. It's very easy to see how arbitrary and deluded these people are... and, in my opinion, that tends to happen when personification comes into religious ideas of dualism.**
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Ah yes, I agree Redd Fezz, the only way to become truly knowledgeable, is get ALL the books, and take in what is useful and discard what is useless. But Thelema is really the basis of ALL magick, because it teaches all the fundementals of Jewish magick with is Kabbalah.. Right?
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have you all ever read and watched videos on hitler and the occult practices.
wewelsburg castle, the black sun, all of which are satanic in some form or another..
another thing to consider that the demons and satan have really ran strong in africa,
Look at the country of africa, Darfur, the diamond trading of the past. The Goetic spirits will not hide the fact that some of them are spirit behind Africas misfortune,
Vassago said to Poke Runyon in the DVD The dark mirror of Magick, that A son of Africa will be slain.. 2 weeks later in early 2001, The President of Congo was murdered by his bodyguard.
And these People are Loyal to these spirits... I mean This is some deep stuff were talking here.
Joy of Satan
The temple of Set
the Church of Lucifer
The Church of Satan
and many others who are opposing the TRUE source of magick.. Thelema..Wow I could be a Public speaker. Get get peoples attention..
or a preacher who colelcts money and rides off in a 2007 Coupe DeVille.. YES, that is wonderful to think of.
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If demons are going crazy in Africa, all it proves to me is that it's not rewarding to invest your time in them. Worst place in the world to live = get 1 Jesus Christ, people.
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I dont encourage anyone to do Goetia,
But if you do, ask the spirit you summon, about what were taking about and see what they say..
They have to tell the truth..
I have yet to do Goetia, because i'm not Proficient in Thelema in that stage of my true will, and when I do Goetia, I will probably never do it by myself..
They do not play with humans, they hate us for many reasons. But some do help us. But they seem not not tell the truth to the Satanist, They have to read old Grimoiries to get the truth.
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I don't know why they would "have" to tell the truth. I think you'd have to be pretty confident in your level of accomplishment to consider it a fact that a Goetic demon has told you the "truth" when truth is relative and demons have the known tendencies to lie and manipulate. I don't think whatever they would have to tell me about what we've been discussing would be all that enlightening. As far as the Poke Runyun thing, I've seen more amazing coincidences in Tarot spreads and daily life/pathwork. Poke Runyun also does some simple things like the LBRP differently than anyone else, so I don't know what system he's supposed to be using. As far as I can tell, any idiot can mess around with demons and demons are good at convincing mere humans of just about any idiotic thing. In the end, there is no way to prove a demon, or any apparent outside entity for that matter, including humans, is benign... but, trusting beings who claim responsibility for African chaos and tragedy is about as wise as joining the Blood or Crip street gangs for safety.
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I disagree kind of.
If what King Solomon did with the goetic spirits is not true..
quite frankly, I dont think thats true in my opinion.
or when Jack Parson called bartzabel, summoned him up, and pulled Ron Hubbard back to shore,
Then I guess there is no such thing as demons.
youre a thelemite? Right? You probably have more knowledge than me about Thelema Right? but I mean these are mere opinions. From Christian and True and thelemic sources.
You must believe that humans in general will not cause such as great of evil as whats going on over in Africa?
Humans are evil yes.. But only to a Certain extent. They can only have but so much evil.. Because after too long, the true nature of human will take over.
What is the true nature of Humanity.. Thelema, our Own Will, Isnt it?
anything can happen and Demons are real, and they not only exist in our minds but in world as well, they are invisible but become visible at their will.
I understand your points, and I agree but. let me ask you
when people do goetia, what is their goal.. Why would they mess with such a horrible beings such as goetic spirits?
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@Kingsolomon said
"youre a thelemite? Right? You probably have more knowledge than me about Thelema Right? but I mean these are mere opinions. From Christian and True and thelemic sources. "
I don't think I'm really the best "Thelemic" example. I've been into Crowley for almost 20 years now, but never joined any of the A.'.A.'. branches, OTO, TOT or anything. I have been a member of BOTA and I certainly have tried a lot of different things. Studying the Golden Dawn lead me through several phases, including in-depth study of Vedanta and Hinduism. Along the way, like Crowley, I was interested in Buddhism. In fact, I'd say for some inexplicable reason, I was always drawn to Tibetan Buddhism. I saw them on TV when I was, like, 12 and thought to myself, "They have it. I don't know what it is, but one day, I want to make time to find out what it is..." and then I kind of forgot about it. It wasn't until later-- MUCH later-- after putting the Western Mystery Tradition above ALL ELSE in my life, including employment, love and social distraction, that Thelema pointed me back in the general direction of Tibetan Buddhism. Vajrayana then led me to Dzogchen, which I have only been studying for 1 year...and it has opened up Crowley's writings like you would not believe. I am convinced this was the difference between Crowley and Bennett. Bennett followed Theravada, Crowley followed Dzogchen. Dzogchen is called "Highest Yoga Tantra." As Buddhism intentionally violated the taboos of Hindu culture, Dzogchen intentionally violates the taboos of Theravada Buddhism. But, it is oh so Buddhist! However, I understand Crowley's disparaging remarks toward "the Buddhist" in his various writings. At the time, Theravada was what was commonly known. I have a feeling in his travels, he contacted Dakinis and Devas which filtered their knowledge through Crowley's extensive Western background.
In the end, there is really not a lot of difference between various cultural energy forms, whcih is why WMT tends to group things as if they were "basically the same" on the Tree of Life organizational scheme, whether they are Egyptian, Greek, Hindu or Norse religious ideas. I have convincingly compared the Tree of Life to the Cosmic Refuge Tree in Vajrayana Buddhism, for example. I have compared Dzogchen cosmology to Qabalistic cosmology and I did not come up short. I was not disappointed!
So, what I am saying is that this idea of who is "right" and "wrong" is not exactly cut-and-dried for me, personally. I mean, do you REALLY think that either the Satanists on Joy of Satan are right OR Crowley's Thelema is right? I don't. These are all relative concepts. The ultimate nature of reality is more simple and less bigoted than that. Why Thelema interests me more than other WMT Qabalistic schools is that Crowley treats the whole thing sensibly: in relative terms, he treats his focus of attention "as if it were real" at the time, just as though in ordinary life you and I are illusory we treat each other as real enough for the moment. There is an interaction, a unity of purpose and experience in every moment. Surrendering to that moment is experience of Truth in the real, truthy-truth accurate sence of the word "truth." As soon as we label it "truth," however, it becomes a consideration and therefore just a conceptual limitation: a lie like everything else. But, experience for its own sake is true. All of the physical phenomena are "ornaments of the Mind" in Dzogchen teaching. When we approach things with an "accept or reject" attitude, we fall into error. As Crowley's Aiwass said, "by division comes hurt" (or something like that.) Space is the female supportive structure birthing all experience; she is the ground of being. Being in that space is the male projectile, making love to the Void. If you reject your lover, there cometh hurt!
So, it is not "either/or" for me when I read about different ideas about relative existence. It is quite beyond that! When I read the Joy of Satan, I can understand it's perspective, but it does not sway me in the least. When I read about Solomon's magick, I understand it from that perspective, too. But, I don't believe it is Truth. Truth is beyond such ideas. Demonic or angelic interactions are only relative relationships. I don't expect to squeeze the mystery of the universe out of either of them. That is something that I must do for myself through integration... which is all about LOVE, not making war.
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youre right, I dont put a truth on Thelema or Satanism or Chirstendom, or Buddism.
space is the female, separation cometh hurt, I like how you put that.
just when I thought theory and concept and truth is not with people, you said some good stuff. I put more respect into this forum and now I will have open ears and an open mind about whatever people say..
Because I cannot argue with what you said in the last post, you are after my heart in that last post. Nice to hear that others have an open mind as well
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Thanks. As I am always learning myself, I suppose I could have a change of heart down the line and turn into a hate-mongering Satanist one day... but I doubt it!
I'm not sure if Jim deleted them or not, but there used to be some threads on here where he had advised me about the concept of Satan a few times. Back then (not even too long ago) I really was tied up in knots of the whole concept of Satan. Seems so ridiculous now!
By the way, The Ninth Gate is a great movie which I've noticed people interpret differently depending on their orientation. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. If you think it sucks, get back to me and I'll post a few links and ideas. I'd say it paints a good picture of Lucifer, the Light-Bearer and how this differs from the selfish sort of Satanism we usually hear about everywhere.
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The Ninth Gate eh?
I'll have to Rent it on Friday and check it out.
If I like I'll buy it.
I'm getting ready to start a topic on Jewish Kabbalah and magick..
I want to see how people respond to it.
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King Solomon:
Bilderberg and such have absolutely nothing to do with Rosicrucians and Freemasons pretty much. Bilderberg is real. Council on Foreign Relations is real. Trilateral Commission is real, my friend. Are these run by 'Rosicrucians' or 'Masons' - absolutely not. If anything, they are run by very powerful bankers & corporate interests.
Second of all, get off your goddamn high horse that Thelema is somehow the best. The only reason you are associating with it, then, is because you view it as the best and you want to be 'the best.' It doesnt 'teach the fundamentals of jewish qabalah.' Yes, it may include teachings that are similar but they are pretty unrelated. Qabalah relates to EVERYTHING, therefore it obviously relates to Thelema, but it certainly is NOT its basis. I have read more about Qabalah than I wish I ever did - I stopped because 99% of the people I meet who read about Qabalah are obsessed with Gematria proofs (and they never realize... even if they DID get an amazing proof, it says and does absolutely NOTHING!) and also blab about how they are so smart and powerful (while sitting in their armchair, that is!)
All this talk of devils in Africa and crap like that is absolutely ridiculos. First of all we have no proof of any devil or spirit or god outside of our own mind ... which SHOULD be a clue to some. Secondly, these comments abotu devils and spirits are just justifying people's subtle racism and ridiculous notion about 'better' races or religions.
Humans are not 'evil.' That is absolutely ridiculous. If anything, they are 'bad.' Evil doesnt even exist. You cannot even begin to presume that somehow YOU know 'the true nature of humanity.' Even if it was for each to do their Will, each Will is unique and theres no way one individual could fathom the whole.
What is the point of this whole thread? Joyofsatan.com is obviously ridiculous 'satanists' who, like every society, think they are the coolest and the best of the bunch (like many Thelemites here do with Thelema). People obviously have different opinions about hte nature of spirits/demons and the methods of summoning them... Who cares about all this anyways? Summoning spirits? What did this ever really do for anyone except make them go crazy, mislead them, or injure them?
65 & 210,
111-418 -
Oh it's on now,
I love a good debate..
You think youre Opinions are ... whatever, you think it is.
but buddy, these are just statements, like Bill O'Reilly on the O'Reilly Factor, you listen to him dont you? He makes Ridiculous statements like I do.
But see, I do my research, I know that Bilderberg and The TC and the CFR are not correlated to the masons you guttersnipe.
If you think you know so much, prove your research.
I was making that point that Infowars and davidicke.com and all those CONSPIRACY sites are false, just as you pointed out to me. But I guess youre an Idiot , or a dumbass, you pick. Pick who you really are.
You are not proving no point but point of immaturity my friend.
I am new to Thelema, youre right I DO want to be the best, do you have a problem with that, because if you do, theres nothing you can do to stop it.
now can you.There is nothing wrong with confidence, not plain ignorance, I suggest you stick to whatever youre reading, because it sounds like some denial of the real world my friend.
My will through thelema, and yoga, and other magickal practices will be done.
Now, enough trash talking, I find myself getting immature more and more when I stoop down to your level.
Lets talk about what made you angry with this posting. How do you measure success. I measure it in many ways. I but I want to hear your statements.
Because I know you have something smart to say.. And all I am is just debating with the forum and picking peoples brains.. I'm confident with myself, how about you?
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Aum418
You are a man who wants to see magickal proof Right?
I do too, I posted a topic a little while ago on ceremonial magick, I'm tired of people proving theories and philosophical crap. I want to see the real thing just like you..
Demons and angels are real my dude,
I guess you will not see that unless you exprience unforseen things.
Snoop Dogg said it best when he said, "Believe in the things you cant see."
did you ever read about Jack Parsons, and Sabazius of the OTO?
here I am talking free speech, I knew i could get someone fired up.
and that was the whole point, to get diffrent point of views..
But it's funny that the CFR and the TC, and Bilderberg had Lots of masons as members.
But there is no masonic influence anymore these days.. thats true..
But I know a couple of people who have had immense help with masonic charity and help at the 22 degree and higher levels,
politics
jobs
money..
they helped their brothers get what they want.. I know Because I am a mason.
SO you cant tell me what i've seen in MY life.. Because buddy it's good to be a member of all the organizations that we've talked about. You will be a powerful person, even if you DONT want the power..Thats my point. and i'm sticking to it.
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You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You can catch the most flies with manure.
But, sometimes, flies catch dicks. And that hurts.
EDIT: please take no offense, I'm not even sure what it means...
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LOL LOL
ok. that is funny though..
Ok, so maybe I was a dick though, but he doesnt have the right to say my opinions are fake.
He's proabaly never even done ceremonial magick, and if he did, he must not be good at it..
maybe i sound kocky, or arrogant.. But if I know what i'm talking about.. and can back it up.
I dont know. I see Thelema and other principles of study have helped me immensely since January of This year, that I just want to boast about How Thelema can help others, I guess I'm giving a sermon in a arrogant way. and I've seen things in my life and witnessed things in my own eyes.. and those around me attest to what they saw as well.
aum 418 has no sense of direction. I believe his moral compass is so F-ed up that I'm surprised that he can make out to the driveway to start his car every morning, the man has no compassion and no imagination. therefore he has failed in his life.
maybe that is true of him. but I'll meditate for him and maybe I can help achieve his goals. all I want to see is others happy, theres nothing wrong with debating time from time.
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aum418, do you mind me asking what sort of practice you do? Like if it's results-oriented magick, without using qabalah, what do you do? Chaos-type? Or if theurgy, do you disregard all qabalist trappings and symbolism? Just curious. None of my business, of course, just wondering.
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Redd Fezz, youre a humble guy, and I like that.
But you asked him a good question.
what does he know? he hasnt spoken a word since i set his butt straight the first time.
or maybe he set me straight?
if he can come up with a real reason for his diciplines in his life, I might try his methods. I'm open to anything, and willing to try anything at least twice.
because once you dont really know what it is.. twice youre familiar with it.