Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelemites

[redd fezz]

@Kingsolomon said

"youre a thelemite? Right? You probably have more knowledge than me about Thelema Right? but I mean these are mere opinions. From Christian and True and thelemic sources. "

I don't think I'm really the best "Thelemic" example. I've been into Crowley for almost 20 years now, but never joined any of the A.'.A.'. branches, OTO, TOT or anything. I have been a member of BOTA and I certainly have tried a lot of different things. Studying the Golden Dawn lead me through several phases, including in-depth study of Vedanta and Hinduism. Along the way, like Crowley, I was interested in Buddhism. In fact, I'd say for some inexplicable reason, I was always drawn to Tibetan Buddhism. I saw them on TV when I was, like, 12 and thought to myself, "They have it. I don't know what it is, but one day, I want to make time to find out what it is..." and then I kind of forgot about it. It wasn't until later-- MUCH later-- after putting the Western Mystery Tradition above ALL ELSE in my life, including employment, love and social distraction, that Thelema pointed me back in the general direction of Tibetan Buddhism. Vajrayana then led me to Dzogchen, which I have only been studying for 1 year...and it has opened up Crowley's writings like you would not believe. I am convinced this was the difference between Crowley and Bennett. Bennett followed Theravada, Crowley followed Dzogchen. Dzogchen is called "Highest Yoga Tantra." As Buddhism intentionally violated the taboos of Hindu culture, Dzogchen intentionally violates the taboos of Theravada Buddhism. But, it is oh so Buddhist! However, I understand Crowley's disparaging remarks toward "the Buddhist" in his various writings. At the time, Theravada was what was commonly known. I have a feeling in his travels, he contacted Dakinis and Devas which filtered their knowledge through Crowley's extensive Western background.

In the end, there is really not a lot of difference between various cultural energy forms, whcih is why WMT tends to group things as if they were "basically the same" on the Tree of Life organizational scheme, whether they are Egyptian, Greek, Hindu or Norse religious ideas. I have convincingly compared the Tree of Life to the Cosmic Refuge Tree in Vajrayana Buddhism, for example. I have compared Dzogchen cosmology to Qabalistic cosmology and I did not come up short. I was not disappointed!

So, what I am saying is that this idea of who is "right" and "wrong" is not exactly cut-and-dried for me, personally. I mean, do you REALLY think that either the Satanists on Joy of Satan are right OR Crowley's Thelema is right? I don't. These are all relative concepts. The ultimate nature of reality is more simple and less bigoted than that. Why Thelema interests me more than other WMT Qabalistic schools is that Crowley treats the whole thing sensibly: in relative terms, he treats his focus of attention "as if it were real" at the time, just as though in ordinary life you and I are illusory we treat each other as real enough for the moment. There is an interaction, a unity of purpose and experience in every moment. Surrendering to that moment is experience of Truth in the real, truthy-truth accurate sence of the word "truth." As soon as we label it "truth," however, it becomes a consideration and therefore just a conceptual limitation: a lie like everything else. But, experience for its own sake is true. All of the physical phenomena are "ornaments of the Mind" in Dzogchen teaching. When we approach things with an "accept or reject" attitude, we fall into error. As Crowley's Aiwass said, "by division comes hurt" (or something like that.) Space is the female supportive structure birthing all experience; she is the ground of being. Being in that space is the male projectile, making love to the Void. If you reject your lover, there cometh hurt!

So, it is not "either/or" for me when I read about different ideas about relative existence. It is quite beyond that! When I read the Joy of Satan, I can understand it's perspective, but it does not sway me in the least. When I read about Solomon's magick, I understand it from that perspective, too. But, I don't believe it is Truth. Truth is beyond such ideas. Demonic or angelic interactions are only relative relationships. I don't expect to squeeze the mystery of the universe out of either of them. That is something that I must do for myself through integration... which is all about LOVE, not making war.

[Kingsolomon]

youre right, I dont put a truth on Thelema or Satanism or Chirstendom, or Buddism.

space is the female, separation cometh hurt, I like how you put that.

just when I thought theory and concept and truth is not with people, you said some good stuff. I put more respect into this forum and now I will have open ears and an open mind about whatever people say..

Because I cannot argue with what you said in the last post, you are after my heart in that last post. Nice to hear that others have an open mind as well

[redd fezz]

Thanks. As I am always learning myself, I suppose I could have a change of heart down the line and turn into a hate-mongering Satanist one day... but I doubt it!

I'm not sure if Jim deleted them or not, but there used to be some threads on here where he had advised me about the concept of Satan a few times. Back then (not even too long ago) I really was tied up in knots of the whole concept of Satan. Seems so ridiculous now!

By the way, The Ninth Gate is a great movie which I've noticed people interpret differently depending on their orientation. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. If you think it sucks, get back to me and I'll post a few links and ideas. I'd say it paints a good picture of Lucifer, the Light-Bearer and how this differs from the selfish sort of Satanism we usually hear about everywhere.

[Kingsolomon]

The Ninth Gate eh?

I'll have to Rent it on Friday and check it out.

If I like I'll buy it.

I'm getting ready to start a topic on Jewish Kabbalah and magick..

I want to see how people respond to it.

[Aum418]

King Solomon:

Bilderberg and such have absolutely nothing to do with Rosicrucians and Freemasons pretty much. Bilderberg is real. Council on Foreign Relations is real. Trilateral Commission is real, my friend. Are these run by 'Rosicrucians' or 'Masons' - absolutely not. If anything, they are run by very powerful bankers & corporate interests.

Second of all, get off your goddamn high horse that Thelema is somehow the best. The only reason you are associating with it, then, is because you view it as the best and you want to be 'the best.' It doesnt 'teach the fundamentals of jewish qabalah.' Yes, it may include teachings that are similar but they are pretty unrelated. Qabalah relates to EVERYTHING, therefore it obviously relates to Thelema, but it certainly is NOT its basis. I have read more about Qabalah than I wish I ever did - I stopped because 99% of the people I meet who read about Qabalah are obsessed with Gematria proofs (and they never realize... even if they DID get an amazing proof, it says and does absolutely NOTHING!) and also blab about how they are so smart and powerful (while sitting in their armchair, that is!)

All this talk of devils in Africa and crap like that is absolutely ridiculos. First of all we have no proof of any devil or spirit or god outside of our own mind ... which SHOULD be a clue to some. Secondly, these comments abotu devils and spirits are just justifying people's subtle racism and ridiculous notion about 'better' races or religions.

Humans are not 'evil.' That is absolutely ridiculous. If anything, they are 'bad.' Evil doesnt even exist. You cannot even begin to presume that somehow YOU know 'the true nature of humanity.' Even if it was for each to do their Will, each Will is unique and theres no way one individual could fathom the whole.

What is the point of this whole thread? Joyofsatan.com is obviously ridiculous 'satanists' who, like every society, think they are the coolest and the best of the bunch (like many Thelemites here do with Thelema). People obviously have different opinions about hte nature of spirits/demons and the methods of summoning them... Who cares about all this anyways? Summoning spirits? What did this ever really do for anyone except make them go crazy, mislead them, or injure them?

65 & 210,
111-418

[Kingsolomon]

Oh it's on now,

I love a good debate..

You think youre Opinions are ... whatever, you think it is.

but buddy, these are just statements, like Bill O'Reilly on the O'Reilly Factor, you listen to him dont you? He makes Ridiculous statements like I do.

But see, I do my research, I know that Bilderberg and The TC and the CFR are not correlated to the masons you guttersnipe.

If you think you know so much, prove your research.

I was making that point that Infowars and davidicke.com and all those CONSPIRACY sites are false, just as you pointed out to me. But I guess youre an Idiot , or a dumbass, you pick. Pick who you really are.

You are not proving no point but point of immaturity my friend.

I am new to Thelema, youre right I DO want to be the best, do you have a problem with that, because if you do, theres nothing you can do to stop it.
now can you.

There is nothing wrong with confidence, not plain ignorance, I suggest you stick to whatever youre reading, because it sounds like some denial of the real world my friend.

My will through thelema, and yoga, and other magickal practices will be done.

Now, enough trash talking, I find myself getting immature more and more when I stoop down to your level.

Lets talk about what made you angry with this posting. How do you measure success. I measure it in many ways. I but I want to hear your statements.

Because I know you have something smart to say.. And all I am is just debating with the forum and picking peoples brains.. I'm confident with myself, how about you?

[Kingsolomon]

Aum418

You are a man who wants to see magickal proof Right?

I do too, I posted a topic a little while ago on ceremonial magick, I'm tired of people proving theories and philosophical crap. I want to see the real thing just like you..

Demons and angels are real my dude,

I guess you will not see that unless you exprience unforseen things.

Snoop Dogg said it best when he said, "Believe in the things you cant see."

did you ever read about Jack Parsons, and Sabazius of the OTO?

here I am talking free speech, I knew i could get someone fired up.

and that was the whole point, to get diffrent point of views..

But it's funny that the CFR and the TC, and Bilderberg had Lots of masons as members.

But there is no masonic influence anymore these days.. thats true..

But I know a couple of people who have had immense help with masonic charity and help at the 22 degree and higher levels,
politics
jobs
money..
they helped their brothers get what they want.. I know Because I am a mason.
SO you cant tell me what i've seen in MY life.. Because buddy it's good to be a member of all the organizations that we've talked about. You will be a powerful person, even if you DONT want the power..

Thats my point. and i'm sticking to it.

[redd fezz]

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You can catch the most flies with manure.

But, sometimes, flies catch dicks. And that hurts.

EDIT: please take no offense, I'm not even sure what it means...

[Kingsolomon]

LOL LOL

ok. that is funny though..

Ok, so maybe I was a dick though, but he doesnt have the right to say my opinions are fake.

He's proabaly never even done ceremonial magick, and if he did, he must not be good at it..

maybe i sound kocky, or arrogant.. But if I know what i'm talking about.. and can back it up.

I dont know. I see Thelema and other principles of study have helped me immensely since January of This year, that I just want to boast about How Thelema can help others, I guess I'm giving a sermon in a arrogant way. and I've seen things in my life and witnessed things in my own eyes.. and those around me attest to what they saw as well.

aum 418 has no sense of direction. I believe his moral compass is so F-ed up that I'm surprised that he can make out to the driveway to start his car every morning, the man has no compassion and no imagination. therefore he has failed in his life.

maybe that is true of him. but I'll meditate for him and maybe I can help achieve his goals. all I want to see is others happy, theres nothing wrong with debating time from time.

[redd fezz]

aum418, do you mind me asking what sort of practice you do? Like if it's results-oriented magick, without using qabalah, what do you do? Chaos-type? Or if theurgy, do you disregard all qabalist trappings and symbolism? Just curious. None of my business, of course, just wondering.

[Kingsolomon]

Redd Fezz, youre a humble guy, and I like that.

But you asked him a good question.

what does he know? he hasnt spoken a word since i set his butt straight the first time.

or maybe he set me straight?

if he can come up with a real reason for his diciplines in his life, I might try his methods. I'm open to anything, and willing to try anything at least twice.

because once you dont really know what it is.. twice youre familiar with it.

[redd fezz]

KS, aum418 is probably just not around right now... I'm sure you'll get a response sooner or later...

[Aum418]

@Kingsolomon said

"Oh it's on now,

I love a good debate..

You think youre Opinions are ... whatever, you think it is.

but buddy, these are just statements, like Bill O'Reilly on the O'Reilly Factor, you listen to him dont you? He makes Ridiculous statements like I do.

But see, I do my research, I know that Bilderberg and The TC and the CFR are not correlated to the masons you guttersnipe."

I never stooped so low as to call you a name, now did I? I can see how this is going to go from here...

"
If you think you know so much, prove your research.

I was making that point that Infowars and davidicke.com and all those CONSPIRACY sites are false, just as you pointed out to me. But I guess youre an Idiot , or a dumbass, you pick. Pick who you really are."

Excuse me? I never said infowars or davidicke were 'false' at all. I never even passingly mentioned them. I would say davidicke is largely BS and infowars is about 50% BS and a lot of bending facts, but still.

Second of all, you think that calling me a idiot and/or dumbass makes your arguments look mature at all? Its pretty pointless.

"You are not proving no point but point of immaturity my friend."

You are telling ME that IM immature as you call me a dumbass? OK - no point arguing here...

"I am new to Thelema, youre right I DO want to be the best, do you have a problem with that, because if you do, theres nothing you can do to stop it.
now can you. "

Ooooh, you are so scary... ROFL. I never said I had a problem with being the best - I said I had a problem of holding THelema as the best over other systems which are equally successful/tenable for other individuals.

"There is nothing wrong with confidence, not plain ignorance, I suggest you stick to whatever youre reading, because it sounds like some denial of the real world my friend."

Theres a thin line between confidence and arrogance.

"Now, enough trash talking, I find myself getting immature more and more when I stoop down to your level."

What are you talking about, buddy? I never called you any names at all... youre stooping down to your own level.

"Lets talk about what made you angry with this posting."

Before you even go on - I wasnt angry at all. How you got that I have no idea, but psychologists often call it 'projection.' Because I disagree with you or say 'fucking ridiculous' does not mean Im angry.

"How do you measure success. I measure it in many ways. I but I want to hear your statements."

Success is a relative term depending on the situation/circumstance and the individual involved. In the general case I would say its something that gives some kind of tangible benefit - i.e. crossing hte river on a boat is more successful then meditating your ass over there over 60 years.

"Because I know you have something smart to say.. And all I am is just debating with the forum and picking peoples brains.. I'm confident with myself, how about you?"

You never even asked me anything really - you just wanted to take time to throw childish insults my way... quite hypocritical in that you call me the immature one and such...

@Redd Fezz said

"aum418, do you mind me asking what sort of practice you do? Like if it's results-oriented magick, without using qabalah, what do you do? Chaos-type? Or if theurgy, do you disregard all qabalist trappings and symbolism? Just curious. None of my business, of course, just wondering."

I dont do magick for 'results-oriented' things like money, political power, etc. I use the Qabalah as a loose orientation of symbolism and also to decode any kind of subconscious symbolism that appears (if I feel it would help... its usually just confusing and pointless). I mostly do what you would consider to be 'yoga' I guess but Im well aware of all these different methods. Look at the world - there are thousands and thousands throughout history who have practically shown the benefits of yoga and meditation - and what about the magicians in history with their ceremonial magick? Dare I say that there are way more casualties than success stories? It seems magick is causes the practitioner to be much more liable to anxiety, megalomania/inflation, dissociation, etc. it seems - at least in my experience.

King Solomon: because I didnt respond to you within an hour doesnt mean you 'wooped my butt' or anything. This is an internet forum, dude. Chill dude. Look at what you said about me based on ONE forum posting on the internet:

"aum 418 has no sense of direction. I believe his moral compass is so F-ed up that I'm surprised that he can make out to the driveway to start his car every morning, the man has no compassion and no imagination. therefore he has failed in his life."

Honestly - can you read that and not feel embarrassed for writing that? Do you have any notion of what psychologists call 'projection'? There is absolutely no way you can have any knowledge of me beyond my momentary disagreeing with some of your conclusions. This paragraph is an obvious point-in-case that you need to step back and have a reality check, my friend. You seriously said 'i failed in my life' based off me damaging your ego-bubble by disagreeing. You certainly dont sound as confident and sure of yourself as you seem - its like the weak animal who puffs himself to scare off a potential predator... makng themselves look bigger and stronger as a defense mechanism. That seems to fit aptly here as well.

65 & 210,
111-418

[redd fezz]

aum418, cool! I'm right there with you on the yoga!

[Uni_Verse]

I would agree that:

@aum418 said

"
magick for 'results-oriented' things like money, political power, etc.
"

Causes:

@aum418 said

"
the practitioner to be much more liable to anxiety, megalomania/inflation, dissociation, etc.
"

Just as Yoga can become a martial art when you focus on force as opposed to form.

[Kingsolomon]

hey, aum, I appologize to you man,

you made some good points, I'm just debating with you. but you know there is one thing i must ask you..

before I put my foot in my mouth one again. I must ask you what do you do as disciplines?

What is real to you and what is not real.

I would like to hear more of what you have to say.. no pun intended.

I'm for real. I was sounding like a complete asshole, and hey i'll own up to it.

let me start over again. nice to talk to you aum

[Aum418]

@Kingsolomon said

"hey, aum, I appologize to you man,

you made some good points, I'm just debating with you. but you know there is one thing i must ask you..

before I put my foot in my mouth one again. I must ask you what do you do as disciplines?

What is real to you and what is not real.

I would like to hear more of what you have to say.. no pun intended.

I'm for real. I was sounding like a complete {@$$hole}, and hey i'll own up to it.

let me start over again. nice to talk to you aum"

Nice to talk to you, my friend.

For starters, you could read the two links in my signature, or follow my **(http://iao131.livejournal.com:1hepoy4w) which is essentially an up to date version of the iao131 site.

65 & 210,
111-418

[Jonathan]

ok now,
As a Thelemite who has been studying and practicing magick and mysticism for almost 15 years now, a member of the ToT and the OTO (although I do not at all speak for them) I must interject.

Nothing bugs me more than people talking about crap they've never done like it is fact.

I've practiced Goetic magick for years, among other forms of evocation and such.

The original joyofsatan guy is a nutcase in my opinion, but whatever..

What gets me is people who call themselves Thelemites and Magicians arguing over what Goetic spirits are or the pro's and con's of using them
WITHOUT EVER ****ING WORKING THE SYSTEM!

I recomend Lon Milo DuQuette's writing on the subject.

To many times I've heard from other Thelemites "you have to be an Adept to safely do that stuff" - well, tell you what, I'm not an Adept yet, and hey, I could be totally wrong - but it works for me, and if it has jacked up my life, I learned from it and in the end evolved because of it.

The worst is having people tell you how Enochian spirits are so much better to evoke than Goetic ones, yet at the end of the discussion they are asked "so have you ever evoked either Enochian or Goetic entities?"

"uh, no...."

case closed, enough said, stop parroting words you read or what other people told you and go find out for yourself.

sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.

if we are so much better than christians, why are so many of us just as superstitious as they are?

btw, leave the Temple of Set out of the generalisations please, as a former member it is my opinion that they have a lot more real stuff going on vs. the other groups.. might not be exactly what I was looking for but they do actually practice and seek to live by their philosophy. (really not bad if you can get past how they rename classical magickal grades and the like to sound cooler)

whew, enough vitriol for now!

go evoke Orobas then tell me how it worked out for you. Then you'll have something to debate. I think I shall be doing the same later this week, need the old horsies help on something..

~jonathan

[redd fezz]

@Jonathan said

"
sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.
"

I didn't realize evocation was the only thing considered "magick" these days. I guess things have changed since Crowley first invented his brand of Thelema.

[Jonathan]

@Redd Fezz said

"
@Jonathan said
"
sorry for the heated tone of my reply, its a sore subject for me.. One must actually "DO" magick to be a magician in my opinion.
"

I didn't realize evocation was the only thing considered "magick" these days. I guess things have changed since Crowley first invented his brand of Thelema."

my apologies, that wasn't what i meant to imply in that statement, although I can very much see how it can be interpretted to sound like.. My mind often races around a bit quickly on such subjects and I may state things that have to do with a whole thought process without stating clearly what that process was.

Ok, to address that statement - I find a lot of magicians are very busy reading/memorizing/talking about the practice of doing MAGICK.

however in their mystical pursuit of pursuing a union with GOD or whatever, or discovering their WILL, they spend little time actually "practicing" the science and art of Magick.

Magick can be very usefull in both low and high goals. But, as Jim said once I believe, one must practice it to get good at it (paraphrasing here by my own interpretation) the easiest way to do such a practice (in my opinion) is to do magickal ritual with an end or "result" in mind - that way one can clearly see if the working was a failure or success and therby go further in their work by making the necessary adjustments to make their rituals successfull in the end.. SO.. when the time comes to use your "MAGICK" to truly do your "WILL" well by then your pretty damn good at the whole business.. it will generally work.

in this non - adept magicians experience, its in the "doing" not that "thinking about" or "reading about"

i think far to often we are always putting off the work of the Ritual to actually accomplish something b/c we are not such and such grade, or ready yet or whatever.. do it! try it! Base your believes on those experiences, not what others told you!

besides, thats why we have teachers, on this plane or another, to bail us out if we screw up to much? Right Jim?

keeps digging the hole