A qustion about the LBRP!
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@SetiDraconis said
"So with the Yetziratic beings these "Elementals" unless there are hostile to man kind why must they be guarded then?"
Part of the guarding is to see that they don't penetrate into the sphere of the magician (and, more broadly, Assiah) without invitation, yes.
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ahh I see..so are these the same being the exist in the "Astral" or a higher level that some Magickians some times use threw practice to gain knowledge ..some what on a Goetic level I guess?
Not to get off topic.
And in regards to the 4 crown princes of Hell [I dont like useing that term] could you elaberate on what you mean by "your soul's relationship to those particular beings" for explame one not of the Draconian Current or baically any one not posseing skills in magick and condenced mind?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@TripleFlower said
"In theory, you could use the four crown princes of hell in place of the Archangels. Just as long as you have four guardians for the elements."Of course, if you did this, there would be different consequences, and they would depend on your soul's relationship to those particular beings.
I recommend this not be done by anyone below 5=6 or even 6=5."
However, Jim, how is anyone below 5=6 to know their relationships to the Archangels and more than the Four Crown Princes?
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Good point on the last part...jim seems to be a very well trained magickian but it seems perhaps a little byeist[In Genral,the theory I mean] to say its ok to work with one force vs the other..of course Darker forces can be hostile to the magickian how ever those are the lower forms of being "Astral enititys" on the astral mostly[I say mostly] but I could be wrong.
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Yeah I am just not sure. I have actually encountered schools of thought that say to avoid the archangels as well up to a certain point, but in the Thelemic systems you use them right away. But why do we make an exception for the archangels and not other forces/entities?
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@TripleFlower said
"However, Jim, how is anyone below 5=6 to know their relationships to the Archangels and more than the Four Crown Princes?"
Generally, they aren't.
(More complete answer: There usually is a lot of progressively growing relationship to the Angel that starts a lot earlier than 5=6, so the above isn't a flawless answer.)
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@TripleFlower said
"Yeah I am just not sure. I have actually encountered schools of thought that say to avoid the archangels as well up to a certain point, but in the Thelemic systems you use them right away. But why do we make an exception for the archangels and not other forces/entities?"
And classical magick does also. Basically, the Archangels are just about the single safest of magical companions and the pretty much the most useful inner plane relationships to build. They represent that toward which humanity is naturally progressing (in this life, for many!), and wholly compatible with current human consciousness.
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@SetiDraconis said
"Good point on the last part...jim seems to be a very well trained magician but it seems perhaps a little byeist[In Genral,the theory I mean] to say its ok to work with one force vs the other."
It is safer for humans to work with forces compatible with the basic nature of human consciousness than it is for humans to work with forces incompatible with the basic nature of human consciousness.
It's similar to saying that it is safer for humans to breathe air that has a certain level of oxygen in it and is within a certain temperature range, rather than to breathe, say, all methane and at a temperature that destoys human cells. That's not a moral opinion, and it isn't even one biased against methane. It just anticipates the consequences of one choice or the other.
"of course Darker forces can be hostile to the magician how ever those are the lower forms of being "Astral enititys" on the astral mostly[I say mostly] but I could be wrong."
I'm not sure what that sentence means
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Ill elabrate what I meant on surtant Enititys of the lower plane and them being hostile to the Magickian as I understand it...being that some of these entitys are unstble and harmfull in a number of ways and I was thinking you meant that calling forth the 4 pricnes,you were putting them in the same boat with these other darker forces [turns out that is not what you meant]..plus I feel the 4 crown princes as being Intiating forces that can and will assit one with a higher consciousness!
I agree with you on your point being that it is safer for one to work with these forces the 4 archangels becasue in my own personal experance I feel them to be neutral beings **
How ever I do feel if one is compelled and does have the seed of the "Black Flame" with in them they can do this with no damage to the person..but still even then perhaps its best one be a well balanced indviudal with a healty mind..[this is something I have yet to hear any Thelemanite touch up on at all oddly] but than again we are only talking about a Banshment Ritual.
Interesting enoghf in a simlarity [In that its a little of a darker ritual] with the 4 crown princes and Sor Nemas book she gives 2 diffrant Banshment rites that do call upon Shaitan,Maat,Babalon which ive heard many equate with lilith,but dont quate me if im wrong on that I think, I even read some were that Crowley in one of his visions conected the two.
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Jim is right in his statement the vehicle is not normally strong enough to work with such volatile energies until they have progressed somewhat. Like plutonium you wouldn't just give it to anyone to handle that would just be well? dumb
The same goes for enochian or even the goetia. -
@SetiDraconis said
"plus I feel the 4 crown princes as being Intiating forces that can and will assit one with a higher consciousness!"
The "Four Great Princes of the Evil of the World," so-called - Satan, Lucifer, Belial, and Leviathan - appear to be Briatic and, from every clue I have in direct experience and myth, were the archangels of a prior stage of humanity's evolution. That prior stage is very ancient. They aren't "evil" per se, but are likely to be destructive of the life, psyche, ego-formation, etc. of people making deep contact with them today.
The reason they are a problem is that, in order actually to make the contact, one needs to match one's own psyche to the very primitive level where they make actual contact. This isn't just a little primitive. It isn't anything within recorded human history. It's way way primitive. And regressing one's psyche to that level and then empowering it carries serious risks.
There is a specific stage in the Great Work where this is traditionally recommended to be undertaken. It is after one has attained to the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Then, under direct guidance and instruction, and with the assistance, of the Angel, one summons each of these in turn and does specific work with them. It is neither entirely a joke when I answer the question "Do you worship Satan?" with, "No, of course not. He worships me."
"but still even then perhaps its best one be a well balanced indviudal with a healty mind. [this is something I have yet to hear any Thelemanite touch up on at all oddly]"
It's fundamental to the assigned work within Temple of Thelema.
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Yes Jim like you said these forces are primordial in nature..which we in the Left Hand Path refear to the deep watery ocean of Tiamat/Typhon that deep Primal force in nature going far deeper than the aspects of Pan.
But it is my understanding that surtant adepts have successfully taped into the primal power and part of the Intiate of the LHP is actully going back to this primal force...I dont see it as going backwords in the secne of de evolution but another state of higher consciousness vs say somes goal in qabalah becomeing one with the universe..I mean in a way we are becomeing one with the primal force a universe[perhaps a aspect of a multiverse] to which we feal all originates[The primal deep watery abyss of Tiamat/Typhon]
But dont mistake me balance is important which is what I think you are talking about I belive is important before attempting doing this.
Infact this reminds me to the initiatory practice of my Order I belong to Dragon Rouge is that each Qliphoth degree is all so done simultaneously with the corresponding Sephiroth in order to bring balance.
But say with the Tyhonaian OTO they make you work your way up to a surtant point with the tree of life before attempting working with the Qliphoth.
So I think this is a good comparson to what you are talking about.
But tell me in Thelema do most not condone any work with the Qliphothic Primal forces? Or are they open to it?
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I also want to make as point that these primal dark forces are intelligent and balanced in there own right..dispite what some like to think.
IE As froclown said takeing a chainsaw to your arm!
I speak from experance to soem degree as well as other Adepts as well.
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@SetiDraconis said
"But it is my understanding that surtant adepts have successfully taped into the primal power and part of the Intiate of the LHP is actully going back to this primal force."
On the Pentagram ritual - no.
On the rest - you used the correct term when you said certain adepts.
BTW, might you possibily use a spell-checker on your posts?
"I dont see it as going backwords in the secne of de evolution but another state of higher consciousness"
I submit, from personal experience, that you are wrong. Believe me or not. I've done my duty by saying so very firmly.
"Infact this reminds me to the initiatory practice of my Order I belong to Dragon Rouge is that each Qliphoth degree is all so done simultaneously with the corresponding Sephiroth in order to bring balance."
I wouldn't consider being within a hundred miles of you magically. I am quite serious. I wouldn't permit you to attend any class I might ever give if that's what you're doing. Your carcass should be burned and the ashes scattered in a hurricane. (OK, I was joking in the last sentence.)
"But tell me in Thelema do most not condone any work with the Qliphothic Primal forces? Or are they open to it?"
You're a fucking fool to mess with them until you are well along the way. (The only thing official: A standard final exam - the last test given - in passing from 1=10 to 2=9 in A.'.A.'. involves the Q'lippoth of one's own Sun-sign.)
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Yes Jim my spelling sucks but dont let it reflect my intelligence.
As far as you saying "I wouldn't consider being within a hundred miles of you magically" what can I say....im defently not alone with how I feel and what I do and ive expaeranced and if you have not practiced dealing with the darker currents how can you speak on them other being in only theory.
I have done my best to understand Thelema but I think perhaps ive came to the realization that if my true will or deep aspects of my true will is off these darker primal forces..why isnt my Will respected..why has others in Thelema..[adepts that have been pumped out of Thelema of the LHP] been rejected?
You know I have much repespect for Thelema and Crowley but there are things that go far deeper than what alot speak of in Theory and some times I wounder if practice as well.
I am still learning some things as you can see with my qusitions to you but make no misake ive had some very true vivid powerfull "Occult" experances that I can say are true to me as well as other comeing from the same path as me.
I wasnt trying to pick a fight but only alaborate openly how some of what you are saying purtains to me.
actully it was nice to have some one willing to answer some qusitions for me to be honest.
I feel sorry for any one in your school jim that perhaps finds there true will to be some one who works with the Darker currents vs the archangles or what not becasue im sure they would be told there doing the wrong thing and its a illsuion of there will or some thing to that affect.
Some times I swear there is no escaping this so called Divine retrobution for being of a dark cosmic current of a sort[what ever shape it comes in]..even in the damn occult this is so.
Many of your points have been tooken just not all in agreement!
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Becasuse I am not so good with words and this fellow Draconian here[which I oddly just found on another Thelemic site] was breaking it down and explaining it.
Here it is perhaps this will shead some understanding on the matter.
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Since this is a thelemic forum, and most people here probably have read what Crowley has to say about the Left Hand Path (especially in Magick Without Tears) it must be stated that what Crowley was criticising was a gross misinterpretation of what the left hand path is, that he greatly inherited by Blavatsky, something that is evident to anyone who reads it and which also academics agree on.
The tantric left hand path – the vamachara – which translates as “the left way”, “the female way” or “the way of excrements” is radically different in theory and practise than the picture that Crowley draws. Actually, many of the tenets of the really sexual esotericism of tantra can be compared to Crowleys ideas. We find no such things as ego-worship or shutting yourself up, nothing about being untrue and not accomplishing what you realize at the moment of gnosis. Most of the time the Left Hand Path is defined based on it's practises, rather than it's ideas about the goal of initiation (which is unspeakable, even to those who talk about it) Rather, the tradition regards itself as a faster way to illumination and the realisation of that. However, sometimes highly initiated adepts have been talking about The Left Hand Path as a way of going through and beyond the possibilities of the goals of the Right Hand Path.Actually, this is also the case when we look at western esoteric Left Hand Path orders, such as for instance Dragon Rouge, where becoming a God is a way of describing what lies beyond the possibilities of the highest sephiroth, a qliphotic-qabalistic way of expressing the promise of the Snake in the Garden of Eden, that if man eats from the Tree of Knowledge - which is the Qliphothic Tree, than man shall become like Gods.
The Dragon is the Tao, the extatic eternity – something that makes you think of something that Crowley indeed has written.Of course though, there are pseudo-left hand path organisations that not only have made Crowleys idea of the way their way, but also gone beyond that and reside in total materialism. Like the Church of Satan. Part of this bizarre misinterpretation of the tradition has indeed been spread to other groups with origins in CoS.
I think here in is the problem we have two very diffrant understandings on what the LHP is.
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Most Thelemic tradition embrace tantric ideas. The problem is there are multiple ways of definining LHP. You label yourself attracted to the "darker" forces yet you label the LHP that you follow as the Tantric type. When Crowley criticized the LHP, he did it in the idea of those absorbed in themself and drawn to the "dark side of the force" so to speak. What is "dark" to you? Tantra? If so, then Thelema is "dark". As Jim said, dealing with the Qlippoth is going backwards to a primal state. That's the problem and why it's not natural - it's backwards.
As a note, spelling is a direct reflection on ones education which is deeply entwined with ones intelligence. On a web forum, written communication is the medium.
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@SetiDraconis said
"Yes Jim my spelling sucks but dont let it reflect my intelligence."
Not intelligence - but certainly conscientiousness and care. And when it comes to magick, conscientiousness and care matter a lot!
"and if you have not practiced dealing with the darker currents how can you speak on them other being in only theory."
What leads you to think I haven't? I suspect I know them far better than you. They just aren't for beginners.
"I have done my best to understand Thelema but I think perhaps ive came to the realization that if my true will or deep aspects of my true will is off these darker primal forces..why isnt my Will respected."
It is, of course. But first, there is the question of whether you truly know your Will. (I'm not saying you don't, BTW.)
"actully it was nice to have some one willing to answer some qusitions for me to be honest."
Actually, that's all I was trying to do - be very candid and honest.
"I feel sorry for any one in your school jim that perhaps finds there true will to be some one who works with the Darker currents vs the archangles or what not becasue im sure they would be told there doing the wrong thing and its a illsuion of there will or some thing to that affect."
Then they wouldn't stay, would they? That's the key, ultimately: Whether a person feels a "match" with where he or she is working.
But I also think that you don't yet know what is light and what is dark. You have labels for things but I don't honestly think you yet know what those really mean. It would be a shame if the labels got in the way of actually understanding what we're both talking about, eh?
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As far as trying to label what is "Dark" and what is "light" that had been such a complex thing to try and explain as well as so many others.
So im on the verge of trying ot give up my point..espically after what you said to me and to be honest jim, I do have a Idea of my true "Will" in that I know what direction I need to be going and it is focused with the Qliphothic tree and the Draconian current..but still with love and balance.
I think most who view people from my magickal tradtion and current see us as unstable and this is true with only "some" as its true with others in Thelema as well.
Infact some with in the OTO and TOT I would not allow get close to me magically eather to be very honest,weather for a lack of mental balanced[which we all struggle with to a point] or for the overage of right hand path energy.
This type of "Draconian" calling I feel can only be felt by those who are really of this and in my case born into it from the stand point of my higher self is conected with this force.
Understanding this and imbraceing this has not been easy and its been hard but to say what you said to me only proves that Thelema in some respcets as it exist today is not for me,escically there more I read up on what is tought as being LHP in Thelema vs what really is LHP of the old and today!
Nor does it cater to the Will of every one as it claims[and I mean will being from a occult stand point not a dumb ass]
to honest seeking to explore only the tree of life only and some aspects of the Qliphoth in my opinion is not a full understanding of the universe..or at least enoghf to attack it like such with those who practice it.
So in the end jim with the attacks and some of the diffrant theorys on the LHP from a Thelemic stand point[ which is wrong on some points badly] I would say its not for me..or at least not from the stand point of what it is today...this is not true for with Grant however[I know he is not perfect up and down with his teachings but he is on to some thing and achived some things]
Ive had a few people even tell me that if Crowley was alive today they dont think he would be pleased with modern thelema..for some reason and to be honest only going off some Intiatuion I feel this to be true.So jim becasue you seem to repasent most Thelemintes ive meet and your a teacher im going to base my decsion some what based on you as well as other things.
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@SetiDraconis said
"So jim becasue you seem to repasent most Thelemintes ive meet and your a teacher im going to base my decsion some what based on you as well as other things."
LOL, that's probably not fair to everyone else but, y'know, whatever.