A few general questions on ritual practice.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@hepuck said
"Does this mean I should reverse all god-forms and signs as well (LUX, NOX, etc)?"No. That's a different principle."
Jim, are you talking about being in the southern hemisphere perhaps? Living in the South I've looked at this but it seems a daunting task to say the least! I do LBRP counter-clockwise and have switched Michael to the North and Uriel to the South but it seems we need to re-design the whole tree of life!
Are you suggesting that the LUX forumula needs to be reversed in the Southern Hemisphere? -
@modernPrimitive said
"Jim, are you talking about being in the southern hemisphere perhaps?"
No.
"Living in the South I've looked at this but it seems a daunting task to say the least!"
During two weeks in Australia and New Zealand in 1989, I made this one of my primary inquiries - both in terms of discussing with whoever would listen, and with experimentation. I learned a fair bit, and also saw that I'd just started. It's an enormously complex issue, made more complex because many rituals composite varioius factors, some of which are affected by the hemispheric issue and some of which aren't.
Take something basic like the Pentagram Ritual. This is an artful melding of many magical principles, and these have to be disentangled before you can get to a finished conclusion. For example:
(1) It's clear that the ritual is to be performed circling counter-clockwise. That's the true deosil south of the Tropic of Capricorn.
(2) The Divine Names in the LBR aren't related to their location but to their sequence; therefore, the sequence stays the same.
(3) The Archangels are the biggest problem. I think these are related to brain physiology, in which case they remain the same; but if I'm wrong about that, then we still have to discover the guiding principle."I do LBRP counter-clockwise and have switched Michael to the North and Uriel to the South but it seems we need to re-design the whole tree of life!"
If I'm right about the brain physiology thing, then Michael should remain on the right and Uriel on the left while facing east; but I could be wrong about that.
Yes, there are at least some elements of the Tree of Life - some association structures - that need to be rethought. I'm quite aware that if we ever were to establish Temple of Thelema in Sydney, I'd need 12 to 18 months to reexamine every fine point of the ritual work. In the context of, say, a GD-type ritual structure, pillar polarities alone are so complicated as to warrant extreme changes. Until then, I probably won't revisit the issue much.
"Are you suggesting that the LUX forumula needs to be reversed in the Southern Hemisphere?"
I didn't say anything at all about that.
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Thanks Jim,
Yes I've read theories that the pillars of the tree need to swap around for the Southern Hemisphere. In terms of the archangels, I'm just going on the suggestion of others, not being learned enough yet in the theoretical, but from what I understood, Michael being fire is placed north because that's where the Sun is located. I'm not sure if that is a valid argument for the placement of fire vs earth. Your brain physiology theory sounds interesting....at one time it felt more correct to do the archangels the "original" way but I wasn't sure if that was just from habit - perhaps this needs some meditation!
I wonder if some research into shamanic rituals of cultures from the Southern Hemisphere wouldn't be of value here? Aboriginal, African etc. Now I need to look at the N.O.X rituals, but again my theoretical knowledge is not up to par.
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@modernPrimitive said
"In terms of the archangels, I'm just going on the suggestion of others, not being learned enough yet in the theoretical, but from what I understood, Michael being fire is placed north because that's where the Sun is located."
But it may be that Raphael/Air and Gabriel/Water are before and behind because the forebrain is more cognitive/rational and the hindbrain incudes automatic functions etc.; and that, similarly, Michael/Fire represents the more global, transcendant right-hemisphere functions and Uriel/Earth the more concrete left-hemisphere functions. If that's a neurological basis for the distribution of the Elements, then it affects a very great deal. (I emphasize the IF.)
"I wonder if some research into shamanic rituals of cultures from the Southern Hemisphere wouldn't be of value here? Aboriginal, African etc."
Very possibly.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"If that's a neurological basis for the distribution of the Elements, then it affects a very great deal."
Some people have the hemispheres reversed, with the "right brain" functions on the left and the "left brain" functions on the right. That complicates the issue. (And unfortunately it doesn't correlate with anything simple like handedness.)
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"If that's a neurological basis for the distribution of the Elements, then it affects a very great deal."Some people have the hemispheres reversed, with the "right brain" functions on the left and the "left brain" functions on the right. That complicates the issue. (And unfortunately it doesn't correlate with anything simple like handedness.)"
Lol. Yes, we would have to design 4 sets of rituals to cater for hemispheres as well as the left-handed folks. And what if you're ambidextrous!?
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@modernPrimitive said
"Lol. Yes, we would have to design 4 sets of rituals to cater for hemispheres as well as the left-handed folks. And what if you're ambidextrous!?"
Although left-handed people (like myself) are the only ones who are usually in the right minds
there isn't hemisphere reversal usually.Besides, two versions would cover all of those variations.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@modernPrimitive said
"Lol. Yes, we would have to design 4 sets of rituals to cater for hemispheres as well as the left-handed folks. And what if you're ambidextrous!?"Although left-handed people (like myself) are the only ones who are usually in the right minds
there isn't hemisphere reversal usually.Besides, two versions would cover all of those variations."
I'm ambi...I write with my left, play guitar right-handed, throw a ball right-handed, etc. I even did one of those hemisphere dominance tests and my right hemisphere is only 1 point dominant over left...I am barely more left-handed than right. This does not help when answering these issues.
I have tried doing ritual with either hand over the years, and gotten precisely the same results, that's why I wanted a definitive answer.
Thankfully, I am in the northern hemisphere, so at least I don't have that issue, too.
Also, I have noticed an odd thing...almost all instructions I see for the Sign of Silence say use the left finger (for the shush gesture), but almost all the statues or images I see of Harpocrates have him using his right.
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@hepuck said
"Also, I have noticed an odd thing...almost all instructions I see for the Sign of Silence say use the left finger (for the shush gesture), but almost all the statues or images I see of Harpocrates have him using his right."
This may have to do with Jim's statement above about it being very Order-specific. In the original Golden Dawn, the instruction for the 0=0 sign of silence was to use the left finger. In Felkin's Stella Matutina (post-1900 offshoot of the Golden Dawn), he referred to the 0=0 sign as the "Sign of Silence Without." Somewhere around the 7=4 grade, he introduced the "Sign of Silence Within" (using the right finger). I think it was meant as a kind of bookend, which was meant to complete the sequence begun with the 0=0 signs.
Crowley most likely didn't have access to Felkin's higher grade material, but he did switch it to the right finger in Liber O. Maybe it was based on ancient Egyptian images as you mention above. (After all, none of the founders or innovators in the Golden Dawn actually visited Egypt, but Crowley did!)
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@Steven Cranmer said
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@hepuck said
"Also, I have noticed an odd thing...almost all instructions I see for the Sign of Silence say use the left finger (for the shush gesture), but almost all the statues or images I see of Harpocrates have him using his right."This may have to do with Jim's statement above about it being very Order-specific. In the original Golden Dawn, the instruction for the 0=0 sign of silence was to use the left finger. In Felkin's Stella Matutina (post-1900 offshoot of the Golden Dawn), he referred to the 0=0 sign as the "Sign of Silence Without." Somewhere around the 7=4 grade, he introduced the "Sign of Silence Within" (using the right finger). I think it was meant as a kind of bookend, which was meant to complete the sequence begun with the 0=0 signs.
Crowley most likely didn't have access to Felkin's higher grade material, but he did switch it to the right finger in Liber O. Maybe it was based on ancient Egyptian images as you mention above. (After all, none of the founders or innovators in the Golden Dawn actually visited Egypt, but Crowley did!)
"Ahh, that makes sense. Most of modern Egyptology hadn't happened or was in the middle of happening back then.
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The sign of silence, as in The Golden Dawn (Regardie) is described in quote as thus:
"It may be performed with any finger of either hand, but it is more protective when the left forefinger is used, the Water of Chesed, for the fingers of the right hand represent more violent action, and those of the left more watery action." (pg. 372) -
Funny, if they associate the left hand sign with Chesed, and use it as a rationale for choosing the left hand version, I would instinctively think of the pillar of severity, and the concept of containment, and thus the right-hand, as a better fit.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Funny, if they associate the left hand sign with Chesed, and use it as a rationale for choosing the left hand version, I would instinctively think of the pillar of severity, and the concept of containment, and thus the right-hand, as a better fit."
There's a compatible but deeper, older tradition - and one matching the yogic doctrine of nadis. It is that the left hand is lunar or watery or "passive," and the right hand is solar or fiery or "masculine."
This parallels the Chesed-Geburah polarities. It also parallels cultural prejudices against left-handedness.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Funny, if they associate the left hand sign with Chesed, and use it as a rationale for choosing the left hand version, I would instinctively think of the pillar of severity, and the concept of containment, and thus the right-hand, as a better fit."There's a compatible but deeper, older tradition - and one matching the yogic doctrine of nadis. It is that the left hand is lunar or watery or "passive," and the right hand is solar or fiery or "masculine."
This parallels the Chesed-Geburah polarities. It also parallels cultural prejudices against left-handedness."
See, there is some of my concern. As I mentioned, I am ambi...I write with my left, kick with my left, and all the "fold your arms" and "clasp your hands" tests end up with left most naturally on top. But I throw with my right, play guitar right-handed, swordplay equally well with both, can kick just as precisely with my right, and when I am lighting a charcoal for incense or something, the natural way is hold it in the left, hold fire in the right, and doing it vice-versa seems unnatural.
The thing is, I am recovering from years of being all screwed up spiritually, which included a whole bunch of LHP stuff...Setianism especially, and heavily influenced by Michale Aquino, Stephen Flowers, Don Webb, people like that. While I will not make some absolute, moralistic claim, especially about the LHP in general, which is robust in its vamachara branch, the western manifestation is corrupted, or at least corruptive to me. I know, I know, "to the pure all things are pure"...but I was not, nor am I yet, pure, and my time internalizing such negative currents has damaged me. A lot. This is one of the reasons I am holding off on applying to the A.'.A.'.. While I wish to, I feel like I am really unbalanced and...well, corrupted. I want to purify myself before approaching the order which I have spent my life looking up to. For me, the A.'.A.'. has represented so much, ever since I was eleven...I want to be worthy of it before even approaching the gate.
So while I am technically left-handed, I feel a lot of mixed feelings using my left for magick. The fact that so much of the initiated knowledge seems to back up this dichotomy of left and right just adds to my trepidation. For me, the left-hand is symbolic of the years I have just spent, since my Abra-Melin attempt went horribly awry in 2001, getting darker and darker and more and more nasty and hateful.
I still haven't resolved the issue to my satisfaction, and have a lot of mixed feelings about it.
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thepuck,
FWIW, I am mixed dominant in much the same way as you -- I write, cook, brush my teeth, and otherwise use my right hand for fine motor skills. I play sports and naturally reach, lift, etc. with my left.
The first time I tried the LBRP I intitutively started using my right hand and have stuck with that since.
I am hardly experienced, much less talented, with regards to magick. But the results have truly exceeded any expectation that I had...and I have a feeling that it is the tip of the iceberg.
Based on this, my humble advice would be to dive right in and see what hand takes over.
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@Uriel said
"thepuck,
FWIW, I am mixed dominant in much the same way as you -- I write, cook, brush my teeth, and otherwise use my right hand for fine motor skills. I play sports and naturally reach, lift, etc. with my left.
The first time I tried the LBRP I intitutively started using my right hand and have stuck with that since.
I am hardly experienced, much less talented, with regards to magick. But the results have truly exceeded any expectation that I had...and I have a feeling that it is the tip of the iceberg.
Based on this, my humble advice would be to dive right in and see what hand takes over."
Thing is, I am not new, and have used both hands for years, my right from when I was a kid till about 2002 and left from then to recently. My reasons for this were a switch from Thelemic and general ceremonial-based work to Left Hand Path antinomian work. My reasons for being worried about it are different and I can't exactly "dive right in and find out what works for me" 20 years after I did my first LBRP, now can I?
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"So while I am technically left-handed, I feel a lot of mixed feelings using my left for magick."
"For me, the left-hand is symbolic of the years I have just spent, since my Abra-Melin attempt went horribly awry in 2001, getting darker and darker and more and more nasty and hateful. "
It sounds like you already know which hand is best for you at this time in your spiritual development. Trust that instinct.
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A.
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Jim, thanks for your feedback again. I've been toying with the idea a bit and Fire on the right correlating with Geburah seems more intuitive for me.
