The Knowledge and Conversation ... then what?
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Long topic... probably long answer (to the several questions here)... but didn't at least your last (summary) question can get a quick answer, and maybe a couple of other points along the way.
@sk4p said
"I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?"
Not really repeat. He took it to the next level.
There are distinctive (apparently universal) stages that one passes through in this relationship, and then there are a lot of individual variations. Among the universal ones, for example: The passage from 5=6 to 6=5 is marked, in part, by the act of more deeply conforming the whole of one's psyche to the "mold" of the Angel, aligning one's conscious will as thoroughly as possible to the Word of the Angel (and learning to overcome those character patterns that would lead one to deviate from that); also, a kind of turning inside-out whereby the originally intimate and hugely personal Word of the Angel is extroverted into the world using the Adept as the medium. (Probably said badly, but it might suffice.)
Do you have my book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.? There's a fair bit scattered through chapters 9-11.
"Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?"
No, not at all. - No simple answer (and subject to perceptual differences by different people, but)... in one sense, the link is never broken, though mindful awareness comes and goes.
"Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?"
As you gradually learn to listen to the Angel's distinctive language, they become more pronounced. OTOH, as your life moves into increasingly faithful alignment with the Word of the Angel, there is less need for the hints.
"I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept."
It establishes a permanent and thorough link between Nephesh and Neshamah. That's the main point.
Read the Scholion to Liber Samekh, especially the second half, for some extremely revelatory things. (These are also addressed in the two 5=6 chapters of M&MAA.)
" Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment."
You don't need the temple once the initial work is complete.
I can't think of anyone who had ongoing reexperiencing of the original type of connection, in much the same sense that any human relationship evolves - deepening and changing - as time passes and intimacy strengthens. One can never quite get back to the innocence of the first breakthrough union (though one can go on, into other levels).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Not really repeat. He took it to the next level."
Thanks, Jim, a good distinction. I thought of it, again, sort of in a physical-teacher metaphor as "going back for more lessons." (A sci-fi metaphor comes to mind, and that is the Second Stage Lensmen in Doc Smith's space opera going to Arisia for their mental expansions ...)
So it's more like, he retained the link to the Angel that he achieved at 5=6 for the whole time, but JSJ really was a higher initiation. He didn't "lose" or "allow to lapse" the 5=6 work in any sense. Have I got your meaning?
"Do you have my book, The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.? There's a fair bit scattered through chapters 9-11."
Ordered a copy today. (You're welcome.
I've been having quite the magical revival of late."As you gradually learn to listen to the Angel's distinctive language, they become more pronounced. OTOH, as your life moves into increasingly faithful alignment with the Word of the Angel, there is less need for the hints."
I saw in another thread where you said something like "the HGA might speak to you through a license plate, but that doesn't mean its name is 6J9D25." So in some sense, is the Angelic Voice rather akin to what a Magister vows -- looking for a dealing of God (or Angel) with the soul in all things?
"It establishes a permanent and thorough link between Nephesh and Neshamah. That's the main point."
Maybe me asking this is in itself a proof of me being below Paroketh, but I guess I'm sort of looking for what that link is realized as in terms the uninitiated can grasp. Clearer intuition? Fewer dilemmas about what course is right for oneself? Etc.
"Read the Scholion to Liber Samekh, especially the second half, for some extremely revelatory things. (These are also addressed in the two 5=6 chapters of M&MAA.)"
Been too long (read: more than a month) since I've read Samekh, so will do when I get home from work this eve. Thanks for the pointer.
"You don't need the temple once the initial work is complete."
So is it just more a matter of "now that I have forged this link between Nephesh and Neshamah, all I need to do is to have the right space, atmosphere, mental state, etc. to properly take advantage of it?" (And in the somewhat more crude days/formulation of Abraham of Worms, having the original sacred space undisturbed would be a big plus?)
Jim, thanks much for sharing what you can. The identity, connection with, etc. the Angel is to me the most sacred and important part of the whole Work -- I get the feeling I'm hardly alone in this regard -- and so I feel that while I'd be brimming with questions of "what's it like, how does it feel," etc. I feel rather like I'm prying to ask such questions of an Adept, much like I'd be annoyed with someone asking (say) what position I like my lover in the most.
Or something like that. So I do appreciate all that you share on the matter, both about A.C.'s initiation and your own experiences.--Shawn
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@sk4p said
"So it's more like, he retained the link to the Angel that he achieved at 5=6 for the whole time, but JSJ really was a higher initiation. He didn't "lose" or "allow to lapse" the 5=6 work in any sense. Have I got your meaning?"
JSJ is the record of his self-initiation to 6=5.
"I saw in another thread where you said something like "the HGA might speak to you through a license plate, but that doesn't mean its name is 6J9D25." So in some sense, is the Angelic Voice rather akin to what a Magister vows -- looking for a dealing of God (or Angel) with the soul in all things?"
Not limited to that but, yes, that's certainly part of it. (That practice is really a 5=6 level practice IMVHO. In the 8=3, it is one of 11 clauses to the oath, though the one that gets the most attention.)
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"It establishes a permanent and thorough link between Nephesh and Neshamah. That's the main point."Maybe me asking this is in itself a proof of me being below Paroketh, but I guess I'm sort of looking for what that link is realized as in terms the uninitiated can grasp. Clearer intuition? Fewer dilemmas about what course is right for oneself? Etc."
Those are symptoms of it, yes.
I might add that the Truth Sense, that has been gradually opening since the earliest days of initiation, goes nova in the K&C. One characteristic of this is that one becomes more sensitized to... oh, let's say inauthenticities in oneself... diverging from what is most true within oneself. But there's also so much more. (A whole new faculty of consciousness comes widely open.)"
"You don't need the temple once the initial work is complete."So is it just more a matter of "now that I have forged this link between Nephesh and Neshamah, all I need to do is to have the right space, atmosphere, mental state, etc. to properly take advantage of it?" "
Yes.
BTW, see issue #6 of Black Pearl - you can download this for free from <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thelema.org/publications">www.thelema.org/publications</a><!-- w --> - it probably has more on this topic than you can find anywhere else between one set of covers. Also, the "what comes next" discussion, I think it's #5 that has my Karma Yoga article talking about 6=5.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"That practice is really a 5=6 level practice IMVHO. In the 8=3, it is one of 11 clauses to the oath, though the one that gets the most attention."
I seem to recall that that is in the 5=6 Oath of the original GD. One of the occasions when Mathers got it right, eh?
Thanks for the pointers to Black Pearl -- will read with interest.
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@sk4p said
"What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?"
It is only the beginning. The relationship (as in me and Him) is getting closer, more intimate and more fulfilling.
Think of it as a relationship with a caring lover. Does it stop when the initial love exchange is over?@sk4p said
"Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? "
HGA is called Ishtadeva ("favorite" or "the only one" deity) in Sanskrit and in Vedic culture, indicating that it is the One and only. After true and real connection with Him/Her (i.e. I know an Adept who's HGA appears as a female) things are never the same again. In short, the relationship grows deeper and deeper until "Union" is manifested, beyond forms and symbols...
You (we) are never ever on your (our) own, BTW, it is just that after successful HGA operation you (we) become aware of His/Her presence, guidance, support and so on...
@Jim Eshelman said
"One characteristic of this is that one becomes more sensitized to... oh, let's say inauthenticities in oneself... diverging from what is most true within oneself."
So true. And it hurts.
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I can only speak to my own experience, but there is certainly as much to do after adept-hood (and equally so after "enlightenment") as before.
In my own case, I attained to the HGA some 13 years ago, and it was quite easy to connect to my HGA after that, but I largely avoided doing so for ages; curiously it was only in the last few years, after awakening, that there has been a burst of "communion" and activity going on, a kind of interaction at all three levels.
93!
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I'm curious how you're using the word "enlightenment." I normally think of that as representing a stage significantly earlier than the K&C. I imagine this is a semantics difference, though.
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@Dar es Allrah said
" It's sometimes more interesting to consider what a concept doesn't tell you, or can't explain."
Well said, Dar.
No concept comes even close.
@Swamiji said
"In my own case, I attained to the HGA some 13 years ago, and it was quite easy to connect to my HGA after that, but I largely avoided doing so for ages; curiously it was only in the last few years, after awakening, that there has been a burst of "communion" and activity going on, a kind of interaction at all three levels.
93!"93
Yes. It is also my experience that, ummm, "intensity of communion" varies.
It is interesting to me that the most important things were learned not by listening to HGA's influences, but by living: some lessons can not be just learned, they must be lived to be understood.I had no problem connecting with Him. It all happened in the light of Samadhi, no problems whatsoever. I am glad I have learned to trust and listen to Him, however.
If I may:
I feel this thread is refreshing and rather authentic, as sharing of our experiences has occurred. Quite dissimilar from usual dry Kaballah and gematria math.93 93/93
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Jim,
I read the Karma Yoga piece in BP#5, thank you; and just finished Proserpinus' record in #6.
Two minor technical questions on the latter:
- Fra. Proserpinus receives the Angel on day 94, and the editor's note to Day 33 says he's entering the second "trimester". That's neither exactly weeks as per Liber VIII, nor 6 (or 18) months per Abramelin.
Did he plan in advance for 93 days of invocation and then the Consummation day? I don't see a mention of it. I often wonder (given "unexpected" experiences like Soror Meral's seems to have been) how many Adepts are successful but have experiences like "Well actually, the Angel was 2 weeks early [or late]".
- Understanding as I ask that it may well be part of his own intimate Angel-relationship, is any part of the Ritual "ש" which he used available for the benefit of other aspirants, or at least something to the effect of "He derived it from Liber {Samekh, Pyramidos, Israfel, VIII}" or any other published ritual?
Thanks much again for the readings. These are just the sort of thing I was needing.
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@sk4p said
"1. Fra. Proserpinus receives the Angel on day 94, and the editor's note to Day 33 says he's entering the second "trimester". That's neither exactly weeks as per Liber VIII, nor 6 (or 18) months per Abramelin."
(Looking back to see the editorial passage.) It was a 93-day process (or, rather, ripening the dawn after 93 days). Neither VIII nor Abramelin was exactly followed (though both were consulted). It was planned for 93 days from the beginning.
The first trimester of the 93-day operation concluded on Day 31.
"Did he plan in advance for 93 days of invocation and then the Consummation day? I don't see a mention of it."
A lot is left out or editorially tightened. This published version is less than a third of the size of the original Brother Proserpinus document that was originally prepared (and once circulated to students as photocopies). One entire large segment is left out completely. It was the space I thought I could allocate for that Black Pearl issue.
"I often wonder (given "unexpected" experiences like Soror Meral's seems to have been) how many Adepts are successful but have experiences like "Well actually, the Angel was 2 weeks early [or late]"."
LOL, like delivery of a baby?
Read Day 83, for example."2. Understanding as I ask that it may well be part of his own intimate Angel-relationship, is any part of the Ritual "ש" which he used available for the benefit of other aspirants, or at least something to the effect of "He derived it from Liber {Samekh, Pyramidos, Israfel, VIII}" or any other published ritual?"
Yes, drawn from several things. I'd have to go back and read the original material. My recollection is that it startd as a rough idea that the early part of the 'retirement' honed into shape, and then it made another shift in the midde. Going from memory, once the temple was set up and consecrated (by the formulae used to consecrate the Vault of the Adepts),
Ah, wait, I still have those files around (albeit in a not immediately publishable form - migrated from several generations of word processor ago). Here's a trim version of where it started (as part of a larger pattern on how the day was spent). I'd have to read through them to see how fast this turned into something else.
"1. [...] perform the Lesser Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram.
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Recite, from Liber Samekh, "Thee, I invoke," &c., down to, "handed down to the prophet of Thelema." [Sections A and Aa with small emendations.]
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Perform The Star Sapphire...
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At the climax (after the seventh ARARITA), do such spontaneous invocation as may occur, or none; and vibrate the Name [of the Angel] thrice, using the [an image sequence derived from the letters of the Name of his H.G.A.].
[... minor details about 4. ...]
- Compose myself to holy meditation to dwell in the presence of the Angel."
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"If I may:
I feel this thread is refreshing and rather authentic, as sharing of our experiences has occurred. Quite dissimilar from usual dry Kaballah and gematria math."I agree. I have not accomplished K&C yet. I'm aspiring to. And it's a breath of fresh air to be in the company of those who have. The experience of this particular thread has been like no other. I feel linked to all of you on a level that I can't explain. It's really great. Thank you all for your courage, perseverance and generosity.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"It was a 93-day process (or, rather, ripening the dawn after 93 days). Neither VIII nor Abramelin was exactly followed (though both were consulted). It was planned for 93 days from the beginning."
Thanks.
"One entire large segment is left out completely. It was the space I thought I could allocate for that Black Pearl issue."
Understood, no problem at all. What is there is enormously helpful, just raised a couple more questions. I would love to see a lot more, but I know just from the contents of my own mind how much there is I would love to get written down, edited, etc. and not enough time to do it all. I can't imagine how it is after all your years in the "business", plus having material from your lineage predecessors to work with as well!
"LOL, like delivery of a baby?
Read Day 83, for example."looks back to see which day 83 was
Ah yes, the "I feel I'm finished but should finish formally" day. That leaped out at me on first reading.
(BTW, I was born one week premature, and while my mother was in the hospital for a final check-up anyhow, so why shouldn't my Angel be born a week premature when I'm in the Temple for an invocation?
"Going from memory, once the temple was set up and consecrated (by the formulae used to consecrate the Vault of the Adepts),"
Hmm, I think I've read of someone else's HGA temple consecrated thusly ... this Proserpinus guy sounds awfully familiar!
Your outline of Ritual ש was actually not too shocking; it tells me that my own judgement of how one might construct such a ritual at this point is not entirely crazy. Thanks.
Also yes, the Scholion on G/Gg in Samekh was fantastic in reference to my previous questions. Maybe I should just go away for a few weeks and re-read my Crowley library cover-to-cover and answer my own questions.
...
As for the others who've spoken on the authenticity/content of this thread, I can safely say that registering for this forum, though I did it just a day ago, was evidently long overdue and exactly what my heavenly doctor ordered.
93! -
I've been appreciating this thread as well. It has provided some new insights into the what and why of what may be the next step for me.
Having no knowledge of grades or a path of progress in the past, and after years of "Jesus bhakti," I determined to take every experience as a particular dealing of the Divine with my soul. Regardless of my ignorance, this determination seems to have "taken" in me and altered my experience of reality, for better AND worse. (No, I am not attempting to claim any Latin-titled degree - I'm speaking from my personal experience alone.)
I'm theorizing here, but I think I generated that kind of "taking every experience etc.." experience of reality for myself without understanding and without the guiding and focusing element of K&C, and it's been messy.
It seems to me that if I now work to give the appropriate focus to what has been ...forgive my grasping language... a far too global(?) experience of this kind of ummm... intuitive ability(?), then I might achieve the much more linear(?), guided kind of experience that seems to be associated with K&C.
That being said, I'm also terrified of jacking with my head anymore than I have. There's a lot of resistance.
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@Al-Shariyf said
"
I agree. I have not accomplished K&C yet. I'm aspiring to. And it's a breath of fresh air to be in the company of those who have. The experience of this particular thread has been like no other. I feel linked to all of you on a level that I can't explain. It's really great. Thank you all for your courage, perseverance and generosity."And thank you for your openness.
To me, it always rejuvenates my wonder when I hear experiences of others. It is boring to read the dry intellectual stuff. Anyway...
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm curious how you're using the word "enlightenment." I normally think of that as representing a stage significantly earlier than the K&C. I imagine this is a semantics difference, though."
I'm using it in a sense that would be equivalent to being a Master of the Temple in magical terms.
93!
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@Frater INRI said
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@Swamiji said
"In my own case, I attained to the HGA some 13 years ago, and it was quite easy to connect to my HGA after that, but I largely avoided doing so for ages; curiously it was only in the last few years, after awakening, that there has been a burst of "communion" and activity going on, a kind of interaction at all three levels.
93!"93
Yes. It is also my experience that, ummm, "intensity of communion" varies.
It is interesting to me that the most important things were learned not by listening to HGA's influences, but by living: some lessons can not be just learned, they must be lived to be understood.I had no problem connecting with Him. It all happened in the light of Samadhi, no problems whatsoever. I am glad I have learned to trust and listen to Him, however.
If I may:
I feel this thread is refreshing and rather authentic, as sharing of our experiences has occurred. Quite dissimilar from usual dry Kaballah and gematria math.93 93/93"
I agree that this thread is refreshing; and also with the comments you made above re. "lessons must be lived". In one sense, it would have been utterly impossible for me to do the kind of work I'm doing now right after the K&C; what happened instead was that immediately after the K&C I was propelled into a series of fundamentally life-changing events, which I think were undoubtedly a product of a greater clarity that broke through all kinds of barriers as a result of having done the K&C work. Only after all of this had passed did a more literal kind of communion become commonplace.
Again, I certainly could have engaged in regular conversation with the HGA at almost any time, and did on rare occasion, it was just something that rarely even came up and did not become a regular thing until much later.
93!
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@Swamiji said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm curious how you're using the word "enlightenment." I normally think of that as representing a stage significantly earlier than the K&C. I imagine this is a semantics difference, though."I'm using it in a sense that would be equivalent to being a Master of the Temple in magical terms."
Thanks fior clarifying. - Normally "enlightenment" is used in English to refer to a particular effect on the intellect, especially the liberating of it from dominion of the reactive elements of Nephesh.
But I know this has other spins, especially in the East, so thanks for clarifying your use.
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@Swamiji said
"I agree that this thread is refreshing; and also with the comments you made above re. "lessons must be lived". In one sense, it would have been utterly impossible for me to do the kind of work I'm doing now right after the K&C; what happened instead was that immediately after the K&C I was propelled into a series of fundamentally life-changing events, which I think were undoubtedly a product of a greater clarity that broke through all kinds of barriers as a result of having done the K&C work. Only after all of this had passed did a more literal kind of communion become commonplace."
Almost the same thing happened to me. After HGA advent, I was for 3 or so months in total s**t. Karmic body has been cleansing and it was not easy.
LOL as I look at it now, it was a blessing really. No doubts there.
Completing the Aethyrs operation did help a lot. -
@Takamba said
"I use the word "enlightenment" to mean "removed from the burden of a load." (OH {****})"
On my planet, it means many things:
- normal laya and sabikalpa samadhi
- exalted nirbikapa samadhi and nerodi sammapati and in the end
- sahaja nirbikalpa samadhi, I guess equall to 10=1.