Franz Bardon's magick and method
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Actually... I'll have some salt all around the rim and an orange slice if you don't mind...
Welcome to the bar. The regulars are highly intelligent, unapologetically eccentric, strongly opinionated, powerful personalities.
Have a drink. Don't worry so much about the immovable objects and irresistable forces. We collide.
Tell us some more about your experience with Bardon. My memory of him is shakey. I read him straight through very early on my path. Some of it stuck, like the creation of qabalistic words of power. Some of it was, you know..."What's the point of telling me all the positive and negative flows of all my internal organs?" Did you ever find a practical use for that instruction?
Did you ever work with his evocation system? I've heard it's mostly taken from old German grimoires. It's strange to me that there are different "entities" attributed to slightly different zodiacal degree separations than are usually given by Golden Dawn systems. It makes me think when you pick up an evocation system, you're getting a lot of the original evoker's own psycho-spiritual organization of Reality - strange that others seem to be able to tap into each different system with pretty consistent results. Thoughts?
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@kasper81 said
"constant pissy smart ass statements following my posts
like being in a {*******} gay bar"
@Jim Eshelman said
"You have something against {*******} gay bars? Hmm. My girlfriend's and my four favorite bars in New York City are gay bars. (They're just great bars.)"
I just have to continue to enjoy this (slightly) off topic direction by adding something a friend of a friend of mine created and I hope you'll all enjoy as much as I do.
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@Legis said
"Tell us some more about your experience with Bardon. My memory of him is shakey. I read him straight through very early on my path. Some of it stuck, like the creation of qabalistic words of power. Some of it was, you know..."What's the point of telling me all the positive and negative flows of all my internal organs?" Did you ever find a practical use for that instruction?
Did you ever work with his evocation system? I've heard it's mostly taken from old German grimoires. It's strange to me that there are different "entities" attributed to slightly different zodiacal degree separations than are usually given by Golden Dawn systems. It makes me think when you pick up an evocation system, you're getting a lot of the original evoker's own psycho-spiritual organization of Reality - strange that others seem to be able to tap into each different system with pretty consistent results. Thoughts?"
Hello there. In an effort to try to keep this interesting conversation going, I'd like to take a stab at answering some of these questions:
I encountered Bardon very early on my Path. My ideas of qabalistic Words of Power are more from A.'.A.'. training. I did find Bardon's take on energy visualization (pore breathing, volting, etc. in particular) to help with garnering sufficient energized enthusiasm early on; although, it wasn't slavishly imitated -- I substituted and experimented at will, as I was encouraged to do. When it comes to energy work (along the lines of bhakti and pranayama), I think adrenalin dumps at will should to be used judiciously...regardless of the other "magical implications" that energy work is claimed to have an effect on...
The internal organ flow reminds me of the microcosmic orbit and western efforts to ascribe parts of the body to Zodiac signs, etc. I have found some correlations with the ida and the pingala in my own experiments -- and these are largely subjective phenomenon that can be measured with some physiological correlation -- so I look at these particular "channels" (and meridians, etc.) as possible explanations using relative models, while still paying heed to fallibilism. A nice galvanometer or even a cheap EEG (they are getting inexpensive!
) can really help nail down some of these concentration exercises, and even invocation, with some concurrent physiological phenomena.As far as the evocation system, from what I can remember, I've noticed much of Bardon's system to be like the GD as you mentioned -- I think I remember seeing the diagrams of the spirits using the diagram of the Rosy Cross to base the sigils on, etc.
I agree with your statement mostly with the idea that systems are largely a reflection of the magician's view on the world. I also see that there are some correlations across the board when it comes to other people using the same system. I believe this is a sticky combination of self-suggestion, egregores, and/or memes/spirits. It really just matters what model or perspective you wish to draw from, IMHO.
In my own experience, these "markers" or "energies" can have a "two-way" communication with other people (beings, etc.), but how they receive and "see" these energies are largely based on their respective egos reaction to said projected/received "energy." It seems that the further one goes with concentration training, the clearer the pictures get -- astrally, my view may be different than your view in specifics; however, we can still agree on the basic idea -- and even get down to the same feelings and even colors. This can be extrapolated to a certain extent by studying comparative religion and the depictions of certain gods...
What has your experience been that makes you conclude that people tend to have the same "visions?" Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your statement. Also, have you ever worked with Liber 231? In any event, very interesting questions and I look forward to hearing your reply.
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Oh now, don't let me fool you into thinking I'm any kind of expert magician. I was really asking.
Mostly, I'm a natural mystic-type whose had to learn to deal with the more spontaneous creations of his own mind. But, I've had to learn to deal with that enough, and have read enough, and have pondered it all long enough to get a decent glimpse of the potential of it all. Seems like you'd just need a good system to dial-in to a specific aspect of Mind/Being.
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@Legis said
"Oh now, don't let me fool you into thinking I'm any kind of expert magician. I was really asking.
Mostly, I'm a natural mystic-type whose had to learn to deal with the more spontaneous creations of his own mind. But, I've had to learn to deal with that enough, and have read enough, and have pondered it all long enough to get a decent glimpse of the potential of it all. Seems like you'd just need a good system to dial-in to a specific aspect of Mind/Being."
Ahhh! So refreshing! Love it.
Ditto.Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna brush myself with horsehair and go to a gay bar!
Love everything that you see, my friend! 93 93/93
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@Frater 639 said
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Ahhh! So refreshing! Love it.
Ditto.Now, if you'll excuse me...I'm gonna brush myself with horsehair and go to a gay bar!
Love everything that you see, my friend! 93 93/93"
Last time I went to a gay bar there was the most difficult pub quiz I have ever encountered. For example the quiz master had a batch of ten questions for "latin scholars amongst you". No prize just the kudos of winning and the competition was intense.
I have always wondered are there separate gay bars for women and men, not a single woman at that gay bar that had the pub quiz.
sieg heil!
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What differentiates Bardon's stuff and some Thelemic techniques is that in the occult I have found them to be extraordinary.
For example learning to work with the electric and magnetic fluids is an eye opener. The ramifications are not even by analogy identified in other systems (except Thelema). Other stuff has the 4 elements sure, but the occult principles that are directly experienced using these fluids, well you have to go back to Agrippa to get any info let alone practical experience of them.
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@axismundi said
"For example learning to work with the electric and magnetic fluids is an eye opener. The ramifications are not even by analogy identified in other systems (except Thelema). "
Well, I think this is only partially correct -- the Eastern paradigms definitely covered these models. Unless you mean explicit instruction in Western schools using an energy model, early in the 20th century. Of course, Fraternitas Saturni and the IOT cover these principles. I tend to disagree that they weren't "identified by analogy." Even in the earliest western methods the analogy was conveyed very clearly with the symbolism.
But you're right, the more popular Western methods (or perhaps the most researched and analyzed) *seemed to be *more confined to a more spiritual model, if that's what you were implying. Even then, I feel that the energetic aspects were probably more conveyed from master to student and, from a historical POV, all we can see is the spiritual archetypes that surround the methods. That, and the historical perspective stays away from including ideas that aren't accepted by mundane science -- it wants to dismiss all the "kooky superstitions" that other cultures may have believed (including "magical techniques") because science obviously knows everything now...
The GD definitely had training using these "energetic" principles; although, the aim was not widely published or explained. I think Bardon talks about it clearly -- but his method (IMHO) or ideas remind me of someone who read and listened a lot, but never separated his confusion from his results. Or, if he did, he didn't readily convey that...I guess I'm just trying to reiterate the importance of not getting carried away with obsessions that can result when looking at phenomena under a certain lens. His skeptic left a bit to be desired.
He seems to cover much of the work that one encounters as a 1=10 -- or possibly aspects of a 2=9 in the A.'.A.'. system (which I might add that many students find much earlier). So, I agree that his curriculum does cross into the training system of the A.'.A.'., if that's what you mean by thelemic. And yes, magnetic and electric models are definitely covered as early as 0=0 in the A.'.A.'. in certain aspects.
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Very interesting reply.
Yes my comments have been about the more western hermetic stuff.
It's good to hear that the example I gave about the magnetic and electric fluids is taught in A.A. I think you are suggesting that it is not something that is commonly available and tends to be more 'cloistered'.
I can only speak from what I have read and my (and my peers) direct experience, from which I make the following observation:
In Bardon's training schedule the electric and magnetic fluids are introduced after much basic elemental work. Bardon writes that the training of the earlier steps are essential to mastery of these forces or unresolved imbalances can cause serious problems. My own experience with this work validates this careful approach.
So based on this perspective I am a little surprised at the idea that magnetic and electric fluids are used very early on in A. A. training. I'm not seeking to pry into 'secrets' I'm just genuinely surprised.
If I have mis-interpreted the content of your post please correct me.
Also looking through the GD stuff I have I cannot find any stuff on the manipulation of the electric and magnetic fluids or anything like the volting technique. If you feel like giving a reference from GD type publications for this I would be very interested and appreciative.
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@axismundi said
"Very interesting reply.
Yes my comments have been about the more western hermetic stuff.
It's good to hear that the example I gave about the magnetic and electric fluids is taught in A.A. I think you are suggesting that it is not something that is commonly available and tends to be more 'cloistered'.
I can only speak from what I have read and my (and my peers) direct experience, from which I make the following observation:
In Bardon's training schedule the electric and magnetic fluids are introduced after much basic elemental work. Bardon writes that the training of the earlier steps are essential to mastery of these forces or unresolved imbalances can cause serious problems. My own experience with this work validates this careful approach.
So based on this perspective I am a little surprised at the idea that magnetic and electric fluids are used very early on in A. A. training. I'm not seeking to pry into 'secrets' I'm just genuinely surprised.
If I have mis-interpreted the content of your post please correct me.
Also looking through the GD stuff I have I cannot find any stuff on the manipulation of the electric and magnetic fluids or anything like the volting technique. If you feel like giving a reference from GD type publications for this I would be very interested and appreciative."
Do you mean That Bardon teaches something similar to the energy work of the early grades of AA? I've not read any of his work so I don't know what you mean by electric/magnetic fluids.
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."
Well, an aspect of it is...a quick peek into the signs of the grade of 0=0 is an example...
But godforms are just pictures without Instruction and practice.But, in the early stages, there is drill drill drill...which is why I say an aspect. In any event, the "early stages" of the A.'.A.'. are incredibly demanding and touch on many of these principles -- complete with quantitatively measured test passing.
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."
I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books.
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@Archaeus said
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books."
Right -- that's closer to what I'm saying. No, Bardon's methods aren't used formally -- but again, I don't consider them Bardon's methods. I think he borrowed as much as Crowley did. Although, I think Crowley was much better at weeding out the bullshit.
Also, much of the personal Work isn't laid out as formal A.'.A.'. methods as one moves through the grades. It is interesting how one begins to Understand the methods and ideas that become useful. The paradigms all begin to blend together, which helps one to see the crossover through the different systems.
20.The many change and pass; the one remains. Even as wood and coal and iron burn up together in one great flame, if only that furnace be of transcendent heat; so in the alembic of this spiritual alchemy, if only the zelator blow sufficiently upon his furnace all the systems of earth are consumed in the One Knowledge.
21.Nevertheless, as a fire cannot be started with iron alone, in the beginning one system may be suited for one seeker, another for another.
22.We therefore who are without the chains of ignorance, look closely into the heart of the seeker and lead him by the path which is best suited to his nature unto the ultimate end of all things, the supreme realization, the Life which abideth in Light, yea, the Life which abideth in Light. -
@Frater 639 said
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@Archaeus said
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books."
Right -- that's closer to what I'm saying. No, Bardon's methods aren't used formally -- but again, I don't consider them Bardon's methods. I think he borrowed as much as Crowley did. Although, I think Crowley was much better at weeding out the bullshit.
Also, much of the personal Work isn't laid out as formal A.'.A.'. methods as one moves through the grades. It is interesting how one begins to Understand the methods and ideas that become useful. The paradigms all begin to blend together, which helps one to see the crossover through the different systems."
I couldn't agree more, much of my own work has involved things that on the surface are nothing to do with the Formal AA system but have served to get me where I needed to be with regards to achieving the tasks of the Grades that I have so far completed. I have found that the official syllabus provides a framework on which to base my study and practice but the actual work involves a whole lot more and is extremely personal.
I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system.
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@Archaeus said
"I couldn't agree more, much of my own work has involved things that on the surface are nothing to do with the Formal AA system but have served to get me where I needed to be with regards to achieving the tasks of the Grades that I have so far completed. I have found that the official syllabus provides a framework on which to base my study and practice but the actual work involves a whole lot more and is extremely personal.
I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."
Echoes of my heart as well. 93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."
I think of it thus: There are certain things, basic to the stages and thresholds, that are common to all.
Then there's other work, which is individual to each person and is "whatever the heck they do" while going through dealing with the other stuff.
"the ordeals I write not"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."I think of it thus: There are certain things, basic to the stages and thresholds, that are common to all.
Then there's other work, which is individual to each person and is "whatever the heck they do" while going through dealing with the other stuff.
"the ordeals I write not""
Succinctly put.
One analogy that springs to mind is the university model; in that the student could simply read the syllabus and do the bare minimum to scrape through, and gain the degree/grade/whatever, but studying beyond the bare minimum can only be beneficial. For instance I've recently been reading Blavatsky, which I'd avoided for years based on the sheer density of her work (And probably a bit of a prejudice against Theosophy
) But recently I find that I'm drawn to the Book of Dzyan and all that stuff, can't say I know what to make of it all as yet but I get the feeling she was onto something. -
Interesting stuff thanks for explaining I appreciate the info.
It seems to me that because this A.A. training has some degree of secrecy it is not easy for outsiders to take it into account when they (in this case me) offer an opinion or comment.
This is why Crowley and Bardon's published techniques are so valuable. Specifically with Bardon's stuff it is designed for the aspirant who does not have a teacher. However if memory serves correct Bardon suggests that being trained by an initiated practitioner is superior.
For those of us who have never had the advantage of a proper teacher the techniques published by Crowley and Bardon are invaluable.
What is the point in making responses in which secret information or training is referred to? In as far this information can only be partially revealed the purpose cannot be to properly engage with the debate. But rather to ostentatiously flourish the cloak of mystery and nothing more.
