Franz Bardon's magick and method
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@axismundi said
"For example learning to work with the electric and magnetic fluids is an eye opener. The ramifications are not even by analogy identified in other systems (except Thelema). "
Well, I think this is only partially correct -- the Eastern paradigms definitely covered these models. Unless you mean explicit instruction in Western schools using an energy model, early in the 20th century. Of course, Fraternitas Saturni and the IOT cover these principles. I tend to disagree that they weren't "identified by analogy." Even in the earliest western methods the analogy was conveyed very clearly with the symbolism.
But you're right, the more popular Western methods (or perhaps the most researched and analyzed) *seemed to be *more confined to a more spiritual model, if that's what you were implying. Even then, I feel that the energetic aspects were probably more conveyed from master to student and, from a historical POV, all we can see is the spiritual archetypes that surround the methods. That, and the historical perspective stays away from including ideas that aren't accepted by mundane science -- it wants to dismiss all the "kooky superstitions" that other cultures may have believed (including "magical techniques") because science obviously knows everything now...
The GD definitely had training using these "energetic" principles; although, the aim was not widely published or explained. I think Bardon talks about it clearly -- but his method (IMHO) or ideas remind me of someone who read and listened a lot, but never separated his confusion from his results. Or, if he did, he didn't readily convey that...I guess I'm just trying to reiterate the importance of not getting carried away with obsessions that can result when looking at phenomena under a certain lens. His skeptic left a bit to be desired.
He seems to cover much of the work that one encounters as a 1=10 -- or possibly aspects of a 2=9 in the A.'.A.'. system (which I might add that many students find much earlier). So, I agree that his curriculum does cross into the training system of the A.'.A.'., if that's what you mean by thelemic. And yes, magnetic and electric models are definitely covered as early as 0=0 in the A.'.A.'. in certain aspects.
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Very interesting reply.
Yes my comments have been about the more western hermetic stuff.
It's good to hear that the example I gave about the magnetic and electric fluids is taught in A.A. I think you are suggesting that it is not something that is commonly available and tends to be more 'cloistered'.
I can only speak from what I have read and my (and my peers) direct experience, from which I make the following observation:
In Bardon's training schedule the electric and magnetic fluids are introduced after much basic elemental work. Bardon writes that the training of the earlier steps are essential to mastery of these forces or unresolved imbalances can cause serious problems. My own experience with this work validates this careful approach.
So based on this perspective I am a little surprised at the idea that magnetic and electric fluids are used very early on in A. A. training. I'm not seeking to pry into 'secrets' I'm just genuinely surprised.
If I have mis-interpreted the content of your post please correct me.
Also looking through the GD stuff I have I cannot find any stuff on the manipulation of the electric and magnetic fluids or anything like the volting technique. If you feel like giving a reference from GD type publications for this I would be very interested and appreciative.
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@axismundi said
"Very interesting reply.
Yes my comments have been about the more western hermetic stuff.
It's good to hear that the example I gave about the magnetic and electric fluids is taught in A.A. I think you are suggesting that it is not something that is commonly available and tends to be more 'cloistered'.
I can only speak from what I have read and my (and my peers) direct experience, from which I make the following observation:
In Bardon's training schedule the electric and magnetic fluids are introduced after much basic elemental work. Bardon writes that the training of the earlier steps are essential to mastery of these forces or unresolved imbalances can cause serious problems. My own experience with this work validates this careful approach.
So based on this perspective I am a little surprised at the idea that magnetic and electric fluids are used very early on in A. A. training. I'm not seeking to pry into 'secrets' I'm just genuinely surprised.
If I have mis-interpreted the content of your post please correct me.
Also looking through the GD stuff I have I cannot find any stuff on the manipulation of the electric and magnetic fluids or anything like the volting technique. If you feel like giving a reference from GD type publications for this I would be very interested and appreciative."
Do you mean That Bardon teaches something similar to the energy work of the early grades of AA? I've not read any of his work so I don't know what you mean by electric/magnetic fluids.
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."
Well, an aspect of it is...a quick peek into the signs of the grade of 0=0 is an example...
But godforms are just pictures without Instruction and practice.But, in the early stages, there is drill drill drill...which is why I say an aspect. In any event, the "early stages" of the A.'.A.'. are incredibly demanding and touch on many of these principles -- complete with quantitatively measured test passing.
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."
I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books.
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@Archaeus said
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books."
Right -- that's closer to what I'm saying. No, Bardon's methods aren't used formally -- but again, I don't consider them Bardon's methods. I think he borrowed as much as Crowley did. Although, I think Crowley was much better at weeding out the bullshit.
Also, much of the personal Work isn't laid out as formal A.'.A.'. methods as one moves through the grades. It is interesting how one begins to Understand the methods and ideas that become useful. The paradigms all begin to blend together, which helps one to see the crossover through the different systems.
20.The many change and pass; the one remains. Even as wood and coal and iron burn up together in one great flame, if only that furnace be of transcendent heat; so in the alembic of this spiritual alchemy, if only the zelator blow sufficiently upon his furnace all the systems of earth are consumed in the One Knowledge.
21.Nevertheless, as a fire cannot be started with iron alone, in the beginning one system may be suited for one seeker, another for another.
22.We therefore who are without the chains of ignorance, look closely into the heart of the seeker and lead him by the path which is best suited to his nature unto the ultimate end of all things, the supreme realization, the Life which abideth in Light, yea, the Life which abideth in Light. -
@Frater 639 said
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@Archaeus said
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@axismundi said
"I was getting the impression from Frater 639's post that electric and magnetic fluid work is taught early in A.A which as I say surprises me."I think he means that energy work is covered early in AA training, which it is, and that Bardons work covers much the same ground. However I don't think Bardons work is specifically used in AA, although this might vary between lineages. I'd never heard of Bardon before reading this thread and the energy work I did and am still doing didn't come from his books."
Right -- that's closer to what I'm saying. No, Bardon's methods aren't used formally -- but again, I don't consider them Bardon's methods. I think he borrowed as much as Crowley did. Although, I think Crowley was much better at weeding out the bullshit.
Also, much of the personal Work isn't laid out as formal A.'.A.'. methods as one moves through the grades. It is interesting how one begins to Understand the methods and ideas that become useful. The paradigms all begin to blend together, which helps one to see the crossover through the different systems."
I couldn't agree more, much of my own work has involved things that on the surface are nothing to do with the Formal AA system but have served to get me where I needed to be with regards to achieving the tasks of the Grades that I have so far completed. I have found that the official syllabus provides a framework on which to base my study and practice but the actual work involves a whole lot more and is extremely personal.
I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system.
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@Archaeus said
"I couldn't agree more, much of my own work has involved things that on the surface are nothing to do with the Formal AA system but have served to get me where I needed to be with regards to achieving the tasks of the Grades that I have so far completed. I have found that the official syllabus provides a framework on which to base my study and practice but the actual work involves a whole lot more and is extremely personal.
I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."
Echoes of my heart as well. 93 93/93
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@Archaeus said
"I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."
I think of it thus: There are certain things, basic to the stages and thresholds, that are common to all.
Then there's other work, which is individual to each person and is "whatever the heck they do" while going through dealing with the other stuff.
"the ordeals I write not"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Archaeus said
"I guess in a nutshell I'd say that although the requirements for each grade are set in stone, how you achieve success is very much an individual thing. If this wasn't the case then we'd be simply parroting what Crowley taught and fossilizing the system."I think of it thus: There are certain things, basic to the stages and thresholds, that are common to all.
Then there's other work, which is individual to each person and is "whatever the heck they do" while going through dealing with the other stuff.
"the ordeals I write not""
Succinctly put.
One analogy that springs to mind is the university model; in that the student could simply read the syllabus and do the bare minimum to scrape through, and gain the degree/grade/whatever, but studying beyond the bare minimum can only be beneficial. For instance I've recently been reading Blavatsky, which I'd avoided for years based on the sheer density of her work (And probably a bit of a prejudice against Theosophy
) But recently I find that I'm drawn to the Book of Dzyan and all that stuff, can't say I know what to make of it all as yet but I get the feeling she was onto something. -
Interesting stuff thanks for explaining I appreciate the info.
It seems to me that because this A.A. training has some degree of secrecy it is not easy for outsiders to take it into account when they (in this case me) offer an opinion or comment.
This is why Crowley and Bardon's published techniques are so valuable. Specifically with Bardon's stuff it is designed for the aspirant who does not have a teacher. However if memory serves correct Bardon suggests that being trained by an initiated practitioner is superior.
For those of us who have never had the advantage of a proper teacher the techniques published by Crowley and Bardon are invaluable.
What is the point in making responses in which secret information or training is referred to? In as far this information can only be partially revealed the purpose cannot be to properly engage with the debate. But rather to ostentatiously flourish the cloak of mystery and nothing more.
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@axismundi said
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What is the point in making responses in which secret information or training is referred to? In as far this information can only be partially revealed the purpose cannot be to properly engage with the debate. But rather to ostentatiously flourish the cloak of mystery and nothing more."You seem to be confusing tact with secrecy; In AA the only secrets are the initiation ceremonies which are not disclosed prior to the candidate passing through them for obvious dramatic reasons; and the identities of one's fellow Initiates, which is purely a matter of good manners and respecting others privacy.
What 'secret information' were you referring to?
The actual techniques and practices of the AA are available to anyone who wishes to search online or buy a few books on the subject, there is nothing being 'ostentatiously flourished'.
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In A.A. stuff I have read I see no obvious mention of electric or magnetic fluid work. I mistakenly assumed therefore that it must be some kind of secret stuff.
If there is some clear material analogous to Bardons electro-magnetic fluids and volting in A.A. material that I have missed perhaps it could be pointed out to me.
If no-one bothers then I suppose I will have to do some volt work to reveal the hidden.
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@axismundi said
"In A.A. stuff I have read I see no obvious mention of electric or magnetic fluid work. I mistakenly assumed therefore that it must be some kind of secret stuff.
If there is some clear material analogous to Bardons electro-magnetic fluids and volting in A.A. material that I have missed perhaps it could be pointed out to me.
If no-one bothers then I suppose I will have to do some volt work to reveal the hidden."
No need for volt work unless you want to. Do a simple Google search.
It is the Work and practice that will reveal it to you. Look into the Sign of Harpocrates and the Sign of Horus. Study their meanings and type of "attitude." Then practice as it suits you!
If these godforms are properly "charged" or "invoked" or "identified with" (whatever term you wish to use), they should answer your questions regarding the similarities to the magnetic/electric principles that Bardon is speaking about. Invoke often!
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@Frater 639 said
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No need for volt work unless you want to. Do a simple Google search.
It is the Work and practice that will reveal it to you. Look into the Sign of Harpocrates and the Sign of Horus. Study their meanings and type of "attitude." Then practice as it suits you!
If these godforms are properly "charged" or "invoked" or "identified with" (whatever term you wish to use), they should answer your questions regarding the similarities to the magnetic/electric principles that Bardon is speaking about. Invoke often!"
These two I have used in the GD vibratory formula of the middle pillar, also deity assumption/possession. The experience of these is entirely different and inferior to Bardon's Electric and Magnetic fluid work (although the deity possession was more ecstatic).
I feel there is a communication disconnect here so thank you all for your kind efforts.
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@axismundi said
"These two I have used in the GD vibratory formula of the middle pillar. The experience of this is entirely different and inferior to Bardon's Electric and Magnetic fluid work.
I feel there is a communication disconnect here so thank you all for you kind efforts."
I appreciate your politeness. However, I have to disagree that these forms are inferior -- they work well relative to an individual's training and understanding of them.
The 0=0 signs contain aspects of the similarities between the systems, as I said earlier. If one system works for you, then stick with it and keep going!
Good luck with your Path!
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This is a little off topic in terms of Bardon's technical work but if you haven't already, check out the book "Frabato The Magician". That is a hell of a story!
"Though cast in the form of a novel, Frabato the Magician is in fact the spiritual autobiography of Franz Bardon, one of the twentieth century's greatest Hermetic adepts. Frabato was the author's stage name during his career as a performing magician, and it is Frabato who occupies center stage in the novel as well. Set in Dresden, Germany, in the early 1930s, the story chronicles Frabato's magical battles with the members of a powerful and dangerous black lodge, his escape from Germany during the final desperate days of the Weimar Republic, and the beginning of the spiritual mission which was to culminate in Franz Bardon's classic books on Hermetic magic.
More than an occult novel, Frabato the Magician is itself a work of magic which illuminates Bardon's other books as well as providing a revealing look into the dark occult forces which lay behind the rise of the Third Reich.
Quote from:
www.amazon.com/Frabato-Magician-Franz-Bardon/dp/1885928157
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@kasper81 said
"dark occult forces which lay behind the rise of the Third Reich.
the only dark occult forces that lay behind the rise of the Third Reich were the engrained centuries- old racism of white Teutonic Christians, the mindlessness of the bigotry of "national pride", the engrained shame based conditioning of the Catholics of South Germany, Richard Wagner's unresolved toilet -training issues, , the entrenched hangover of Frederick's Prussian militaristic greed and the greed of the idiots on Wall Street and in the US government who allowed the international financial system to collapse
so it wasn't Loki or Thor, rising out of a creepy, etheral tomb, somewhere near Asgaard, 1000 kilometres left of Uranus, or it wasn't some sort of Atlantean "black magician" reincarnated and returning to wreak havoc and aligning with, "evil Tibetan left hand magician monks". Good fantasy reading for boys though"
There is good research showing how occultism, especially Theosophy and Aryanism were strong influences on what eventually became the National Socialist party in Germany. Also many prominent NAZI's were occultists. So whether or not you think that occultism has any actual power it is clear that Adolf Hitler and the Nazi's did; so this must have therefore to some extent informed their actions.