Last resort magic?
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@mark0987 said
"I prefer my magick to be used solely for spiritual purposes. I practice magick for changes in assiah when I desperately need that change due to it impeding my spiritual work in any shape or form. If I don't need it, I don't seek it."
Then this topic does not apply to you. When a dog bites your leg, what are you going to do about it?
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I suspect that the "last resort" advice is for newbies who might be tempted to use magick for every trivial problem or without understanding the bigger picture of their will. Sometimes we would be better off learning a life lesson about responsibility, or getting a better idea of what direction our life should be taking, before trying to use magick to change things."
Sometimes, it's good practice to use magic for every trivial problem life throws at you. It teaches you how to master certain forces of the elements with consequences that are not dire. It may be good to learn how to swim in a kiddie pool before jumping in the ocean.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"But even early on, ceremonies to increase our magical power, make room in our life for the great work (by getting a job, for example), seem like perfectly reasonable, responsible uses of magick to me."
That is true, however, most often neglect to do this for themselves.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"And when we've absorbed a bigger picture point of view, then we have a better idea of when to use magick in a way that's not likely to sabotage our true will, our short circuit important lessons."
It's called divination. I'm assuming that people are doing divination before doing real magic.
Perhaps I was not entirely clear in my topic post. I'm asking the question: If you are not regularly using magic to affect Assiah (even in minute ways), how will you be certain that you will be able to make effective changes when you need to? Also, if you have done workings to change things: did it work? if not, why did it fail?
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93,
"When a dog bites your leg, what are you going to do about it?"
See a doctor- it's much faster and much more effective and thankfully free in my country.
I do agree with your next point though, without regular practice how do you know you have the necessary skill sets? Well if you are proficient at the key ritual requirements and have done this in the past you know you are good enough.
I don't think I was clear enough; I don't practice because I believe there has to be room for the change to occur, and if there is no need for that change there is no room for it. I am comfortable as I am, if I wasn't I would step back, percieve what needed to happen in order for my change to occur and then either do some magick to create the change, or something which will allow me to effect the change myself.
For example if a person wanted to cast magick for money, they would first need to realise that whilst you may be able to gain money by magick alone, securing a job would be a great way to secure your chances of acquiring money, you then have two choices 1) Magick to attract work, 2) or magick to attract money.
I have found that 2) has often lead me to number one, I have done magick for money and have gotten results once where money came out of nowhere. Every other time an unexpected chance arises for me to earn a little extra money........either way the end result is the same it's just a little more work is needed by me.
I think if you can do something on assiah without resorting to magick it will be faster and more effective, using magick as an aid to this is also beneficial- hell I use the LBRP as a stress release. Using magick to effect change and not getting off your backside to do something about prior to the magick is a bad sign and suggests that you don't really want the change.
So it is my opinion that there has to be room for the change, the capability to effect the change and the want to do so. But I genuinely thin that dealing with things on your own is a better exercise, it teaches us resilience and coping skills, if you are truly desperate use magick to aid you. I don;t like the thought of using the universe/spirits whatever you wish to classify the forces as, like a personal ATM, even though it's the aeon of the child I want to stand on my own two feet.
" If you are not regularly using magic to affect Assiah (even in minute ways), how will you be certain that you will be able to make effective changes when you need to? "
Once you develop the specific skill sets it's like riding a bike, you don't forget....although I do see your point, practice makes perfect and if you don't practice you won't get it. But if there is no real need, there will not be as much emotion and energy added to the ritual, I just don't see what the point of doing it would be.....
93, 93/93.
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"When was the last time you caused magic to make a change in Assiah to help out your position"
I am hesitant to say I "caused" magick.....
But I feel fully confident in saying that I was a conduit. I am a conduit. My life is magical. I invoke, evoke, cleanse, banish, charge and release constantly. I would say this is because I do have several decades of work under my belt, or in my bra or something. I have my own style and techniques that are extremely effective for me, though quite unorthodox I suppose to people who work traditional methods.When I first started, as a teen I did a lot of work for material things. I always got what I wanted, but there were also unforeseen attachments. Because I did not like this "surprise" factor I took up what people call spiritual magick. Work on myself and my part and control of this world. Looking back though I can say that doing a spell for cash to pay the phone bill ~is~ spiritual magick, as everything we do is spiritual.
I think the reason my previous work had these unforeseen aspects was that at that time in my life my vision was shorter, my view of the greater picture less then what I can see today. There fore what I perceived as a unexpected negative side effect was not that at all.
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It takes a huge amount of creativity to engage everyday reality from a driver's-seat mentality. I think that often the only thing that stimulates such degrees of creativity in most people, untrained in the full genesis of their creative mind and the utility of their art, is crisis. I'm reminded of artists who need pain and conflict in order to produce their art, musicians who can only write in D minor
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D minor is the saddest of all keys, I find...
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Yep, it's deliberately off topic.
I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
This is largely unavoidable for me. Divination(again, for me) is an ongoing mode of interpreting circumstance, which perhaps sees its peak in funneling circumstantial energies into the I-Ching or Tarot but can still be effectuated upon the dispersed qualities of the environment. It's through the messages brought to me throughout my days in this manner that my magick takes its direction, inspiration, and permission to operate. Without it--the guidance and supportive presence of the Angel, which is something that must be "divined" in one way or another--any working I attempt will be absent of evolutionary purpose and momentum.
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@HounganRocky said
"Any thoughts on the subject? When was the last time you caused magic to make a change in Assiah to help out your position? Did it work? If not why do you think it failed? "
My answer would be similar to mark0987's in that there wasn't a last time that I caused magick to make a change that wasn't related to realizing my True Will. (OK, that's not quite true, I did perform a ritual when I was a kid for self-change that one would have to really stretch to link to my True Will, and it did work... but I'd chalk that one up to simple psychological manipulation by an 8-year-old rather than magic. Although, looking back, it was a pretty solid ritual.)
@HounganRocky said
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@mark0987 said
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I prefer my magick to be used solely for spiritual purposes. I practice magick for changes in assiah when I desperately need that change due to it impeding my spiritual work in any shape or form. If I don't need it, I don't seek it."Then this topic does not apply to you."
The subtle but important distinction here is that the OP question was referencing "magic" and mark0987 and my reply regard "magick" (as this is the "Magick" sub-forum). That's not a value judgement putting one above the other but it is a distinction that is highlighted in kasper81's post that "Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will." For one who has embraced Thelema and decided to practice Thelemic Magick towards realizing and attaining their True Will, there isn't really much room for non-Will-conforming magic in Assiah.
@HounganRocky said
"My argument to such thinking is this: If you own a motor vehicle and allow other people to take care of it; what will you do when your radiator fails on the highway?"
Oddly enough, this exact thing happened to me. When it happened, I used my magical weapon of etheric communication (cellphone) to contact the choirs of automotive angels with whom I had established a good rapport (AAA) and beseeched them to send an elemental of repair (tow truck) to transport me to the workshop of the gnomes (auto shop). Once there, I engaged the gnomes to magically restore my chariot in return for a sacrifice of gold. Sadly, the damage was too great and thus the sacrifice was too dear which forced me to realize that the chariot was not essential to achieving my True Will. I allowed them to hold onto it as a gift of thanks for serving me so well in my hour of need. They presented me with a talisman of our interaction (the hood ornament) which reminds me to this day of the successful operation. All of this without once needing to divert my focus from pursuing my True Will towards the fine art of automotive mechanics.
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"Oddly enough, this exact thing happened to me. When it happened, I used my magical weapon of etheric communication (cellphone) to contact the choirs of automotive angels with whom I had established a good rapport (AAA) and beseeched them to send an elemental of repair (tow truck) to transport me to the workshop of the gnomes (auto shop). Once there, I engaged the gnomes to magically restore my chariot in return for a sacrifice of gold. Sadly, the damage was too great and thus the sacrifice was too dear which forced me to realize that the chariot was not essential to achieving my True Will. I allowed them to hold onto it as a gift of thanks for serving me so well in my hour of need. They presented me with a talisman of our interaction (the hood ornament) which reminds me to this day of the successful operation. All of this without once needing to divert my focus from pursuing my True Will towards the fine art of automotive mechanics."
It actually underscores HounganRocky's point, I think. His point wasn't that you should use magick in lieu of practical action, but that practicing using your magickal tools often makes you more qualified to use them in a more serious situation.
I'm guessing that you use the magical weapons of your cellphone, your debit card, your grown up speaking voice regularly, and don't just reserve them for emergencies...
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"It actually underscores HounganRocky's point, I think. His point wasn't that you should use magick in lieu of practical action, but that practicing using your magical tools often makes you more qualified to use them in a more serious situation.
I'm guessing that you use the magical weapons of your cellphone, your debit card, your grown up speaking voice regularly, and don't just reserve them for emergencies..."
Fair enough. However, if one does take the powers of magic seriously, I would also assume that one takes the dangers of abusing them (accidentally or otherwise) seriously. To extend the metaphor (probably beyond the breaking point) I do my best to only use my cellphone as a tool to forward me on the Path. This is partly because I have little interest in the distractions and diversions that unfocused conversation leads to but also to ensure that I always have enough battery in case an emergency does arise. Likewise with my debit card and grown up speaking voice. I use them when necessary to forward me on the path. I withhold them when they don't achieve that purpose. This gives them a surprising amount of exercise. (On the other hand, I use my child-like speaking voice at any and every opportunity. Given the aeon in which we live, it is surprisingly powerful.
)On the occasions where I have used my debit card unwisely, it has immediately brought tension, lost focus, and angst. This, I believe, can all be traced to the fact that I have, even temporarily, reduced its ability to assist me as a powerful magical weapon. I've spent money on something unnecessary; I now have less to spend; if Murphy's Law has any weight, my opportunity to achieve my True Will will present itself in one hour and will cost just slightly more than I now have the ability to spend; aargh!!!!
That's the crux of what I see the problem to be with practicing magic not directly aligned with your path of True Will. It distracts. It confuses focus. It taxes potentially limited resources. There are more than enough opportunities to practice magick that is in accord with my True Will. For me personally, I don't see a need to take a side road when the main road requires so much devotion as it is.
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So, yes... only using magick as a "last resort" seems foolish. However, using magick that isn't aligned with one's True Will just for the sake of "testing things out" or in order to "make things easier" in a general sense seems equally foolish to me.
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"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
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@Takamba said
"Then you've missed the entire point of the OP. Why wait until a catastrophe? (I'm only supporting this is his discussion point and you (unsurprisingly) attempt to derail his main discussion platform)."
So then is your suggestion that he should be practicing rituals to Pluto on a regular basis, invoking the powers of Material Gain and reaping their rewards even though he has no need of them just to keep him in practice for that theoretical day when he might be 50p short for that much-needed banana? I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
""Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
"These are all good points. They've caused me to go back and read the OP a few times over. This has raised a really big question: How do the questions raised in the OP relate to the story used to introduce it? The questions seem to be focused on this idea of only using magic as a last resort: an emergency tool. As it is written, this is something that he has "read in many places and been told by many so-called magicians that they only use magic to cause change in Assiah as a last resort," but that doesn't seem to be the case in the example or for any of us. The individual in the example did "repeatedly talk to the spirits and work magic to turn the tides in my favor, but every bit of work I did only seemed to hinder me more." The ritual that worked wasn't something that s/he held off on attempting until every mundane possibility had been exhausted. It was just one in a long line of magical attempts to right the ship; it just happened to be the one that worked so no future ones were attempted.
Is there really a conflict here? Or has there just been a conflation of the ideas of "only as a last resort" and "only if it is in line with your True Will"?
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Wow.
Thanks guys for trying your best to keep the thread on topic despite the best efforts of a certain user.
"The OP is about the notion of, "using magick" so I didn't, "miss the entire point of the thread" at all. The only derailment is in the mind of someone who buys into wrong ideas about Thelema and magick. If you want to continue the fantasy without my input then we'd better redefine our whole idea of what Thelema is. You asked me to engage in hypothetical abstraction. I wouldn't, so you had a tantrum. For the sake of civility and intelligence increase; welcome to my ignore list."
Kasper, I can most certainly assure you I have quite a depth of understanding of Thelema, True Will, High Magic, and Low Magic. It's your ever changing definitions of these subjects that I think you need to come to terms with.
You obviously did not understand my topic post on this thread: I had made every attempt to correct my experiences at my previous place of employment. I took every course of action, that includes my work performance, interoffice politics, AND magic. Every attempt was a dead end, this was strange because I had grown the business net revenue by 22% within a year. Yet, due to the constant shift in upper-management I went unnoticed. My magic was not to necessarily get a new job quickly, but also to cover all expenses and have the entire experience of transition expedited so that I could continue focusing on my work.
I performed the proper divinations and determined my best course of action and took it. You see Kasper, I actually DO THINGS. I don't imagine myself becoming a master of the temple, nor do I require anyone to pay attention to my paradigm of belief. I do the Work of Will every day. True will is not some static point, it is a fountain that is constantly outpouring and creating a lust and desire to grow and change. Causing change in Assiah, and in all worlds for that matter, is the Work of Geburah mastering and commanding the powers of action and driving the chariot. All this while it appears that you are doing nothing at all. Without having acquired Knowledge and Conversation nothing I do would be possible... well maybe, but certainly not as effective.
To refer to the Abramelin operation: Why do you think you have the the Lords of Hell submit to you? Because you are now a King, a representative of the Will of God. Oh, but you wouldn't even have the slightest knowledge of that experience because all of what I do is just theory and rhetoric to you. I will tell you what takamba is strongly implying: If anyone here is vocalizing on their lack of understanding of thelema and True Will it is most certainly you, and you are so very proud of your ignorance that you choose to display it for all of us. Thank you for the willful ignorance it is really entertaining.
You are very transparent in your need to "troll" me, and honestly I could care less at this point. Please stop posting on my topics. It's not fun. It's really pitiful and obnoxious.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
""Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."If you haven't learned the lesson of using a tool wisely, then you need as much experience as it takes to learn the lesson. If you already have the lesson down, you don't need lessons in using the tool wisely.
Your misuse of your debit card taught you some valuable lessons. :
"These are all good points. They've caused me to go back and read the OP a few times over. This has raised a really big question: How do the questions raised in the OP relate to the story used to introduce it? The questions seem to be focused on this idea of only using magic as a last resort: an emergency tool. As it is written, this is something that he has "read in many places and been told by many so-called magicians that they only use magic to cause change in Assiah as a last resort," but that doesn't seem to be the case in the example or for any of us. The individual in the example did "repeatedly talk to the spirits and work magic to turn the tides in my favor, but every bit of work I did only seemed to hinder me more." The ritual that worked wasn't something that s/he held off on attempting until every mundane possibility had been exhausted. It was just one in a long line of magical attempts to right the ship; it just happened to be the one that worked so no future ones were attempted.
Is there really a conflict here? Or has there just been a conflation of the ideas of "only as a last resort" and "only if it is in line with your True Will"?"
If you read my original post, I said that I took every possible course of action. If everything fails, even when you are doing everything "right," what are you left to assume?
I look back at the career path I was so rigidly stuck on was actually a huge distraction from my magical work. I became focused on the interests of a corporation rather than my own. That is not to say that I was being prevented from the work I do, it simply means that I was not able to work at my fullest potential.
You may not be aware of the fact that I am an initiated Voodoo Priest and I have clients needs that I tend to as well as my own. The former position I was in allowed for me to communicate with my clients very easily, but used up much of my precious energy that I need to deal with their spiritual needs.
Why did I no longer continue corrective action once I made up my mind to leave the position? Well, I think the question answers itself. I'm not going to water someone's garden if they don't want me to be their gardener.
The point of the story was not that I was in a last resort situation, but due to the fact that I had been so practiced I accomplished something quite easily without creating any extra distractions for myself. For some, they may well feel as if using magic to get out of an extremely stressful situation as a last resort. For me it was simply a realization that the boat I was on was going nowhere. So, I had my communications officer send a very noticeable signal to the most suitable nearby vessel, reached an arrangement with it's captain, and promptly jumped ship. Turns out, the new captain offered me better lodgings and pay to stay on his boat, as well as better things to do with my recreational time.
By the definition of True Will, being in alignment with the Universe blah, blah, blah, I would say that I demonstrate it's performance in my magic.
Can anyone say that they acquired a high paying position (high paying being between $1000-$2000 weekly) within 24 hours of submitting their resume? If so, I 'd like to read your resume.
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@HounganRocky said
"If you read my original post, I said that I took every possible course of action. If everything fails, even when you are doing everything "right," what are you left to assume?"
As I said, I went back and read over it several times. You did not say you took every course of action. To do so would require all of Nuit. You tried a bunch of things and none of them worked. Then you had the idea to do an uncrossing ceremony and that worked. Devising a perfect crime to murder your boss without a trace in order to leave a position open for yourself might have worked as well. Now we'll never know.
@HounganRocky said
"I look back at the career path I was so rigidly stuck on was actually a huge distraction from my magical work. I became focused on the interests of a corporation rather than my own. That is not to say that I was being prevented from the work I do, it simply means that I was not able to work at my fullest potential."
None of this was in the OP nor does it really affect the question of "last resort magic".
@HounganRocky said
"You may not be aware of the fact that I am an initiated Voodoo Priest and I have clients needs that I tend to as well as my own. The former position I was in allowed for me to communicate with my clients very easily, but used up much of my precious energy that I need to deal with their spiritual needs."
I am, actually, but it still doesn't affect the question of "last resort magic".
@HounganRocky said
"Why did I no longer continue corrective action once I made up my mind to leave the position? Well, I think the question answers itself. I'm not going to water someone's garden if they don't want me to be their gardener."
Obviously. Standard human nature.
@HounganRocky said
"The point of the story was not that I was in a last resort situation, but due to the fact that I had been so practiced I accomplished something quite easily without creating any extra distractions for myself. For some, they may well feel as if using magic to get out of an extremely stressful situation as a last resort. For me it was simply a realization that the boat I was on was going nowhere. So, I had my communications officer send a very noticeable signal to the most suitable nearby vessel, reached an arrangement with it's captain, and promptly jumped ship. Turns out, the new captain offered me better lodgings and pay to stay on his boat, as well as better things to do with my recreational time."
Well, that begs the question: Why were your previous uses of magic and talking with the spirits not effective? Is it possibly because, even though you are so practiced that you can accomplish things quite easily, this time your powers were hampered by the incorrect belief that you could improve the situation from within? That it wasn't until you began to feel truly trapped (last resort) that you had the idea to do your uncrossing ceremony to remove those incorrect beliefs? Once you successfully gave up the notion that you could solve your problem while staying with your same employer (whether you did this on your own or whether it was a result of the ceremony, I don't know), you were free and empowered to travel down your correct path which was to find new employment?
@HounganRocky said
"Can anyone say that they acquired a high paying position (high paying being between $1000-$2000 weekly) within 24 hours of submitting their resume? If so, I 'd like to read your resume."
I can, but I'm in a different industry than you, one that hires the guy who comes with a personal recommendation and is available to start yesterday, not necessarily the one whose resume is better than the 200 others that were submitted.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Takamba said
"Then you've missed the entire point of the OP. Why wait until a catastrophe? (I'm only supporting this is his discussion point and you (unsurprisingly) attempt to derail his main discussion platform)."So then is your suggestion that he should be practicing rituals to Pluto on a regular basis, invoking the powers of Material Gain and reaping their rewards even though he has no need of them just to keep him in practice for that theoretical day when he might be 50p short for that much-needed banana? I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need."
I'm supporting staying on topic. Notice I have said nothing of validity of the OP's idea (as he requested this not be a place of argument, dissention, skepticism concerning the purpose/value of magick) but the sharing on the specific topic.
If I were to add my two cents on the original content and idea, it would be that the daily rituals practicing what is called "magical hygiene" (the LBRP, Middle Pillar, so forth) suffice. If a vodun wants to recommend daily magick "spells," that's fine. I'm suggesting he can do so and doesn't need master-baiters ramming their junk down his throat if he requests that that doesn't happen.
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" I'd be concerned that, after a few unnecessary practice rituals brought me unneeded financial gain, the powers-that-be might write me off as the boy who cried wolf and not show up in my hour of actual need"
Wow. That thought would have never ever crossed my mind.
I am so thankful that my "powers that be" are not the types that would not "show up" when the need was great.
I am almost speechless at that comment.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Yep, it's deliberately off topic.
I'm interested to hear more about some ideas behind using divination as a lead up to a ritual."
I like to turn on pandora, ( which is programed with about fifty channels of all genres) and ask my question as I use the shuffle option. Always unto Nuit, from my heart.
Never fails. I always listen.