Qabala and Mysticism
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Do you mean "every mystic who has, at least once, tasted Atziluth"? Or do you mean, "any mystic who has attained to a permanent stabilization in Atziluth"?
I know there are so few of the latter as to make the question effectively irrelevant on a web forum without succumbing to pure conjecture. I also doubt that there are enough of the former for it to be much of a rip-roaring conversation. (BTW, your description, as written - if we limit it to how things seem to a person having the experience - could be the experience of Briah. In fact, once you introduce communication, as you have, it is certainly not Atziluthic in any general meaning of the word * communicate.)
The main point I want to make, though, is those that just have had a taste, a sampling (even many tastes or samplings) of this state will, nonetheless, rapidly fall back into more levels of consciousness, reincarnating in Briatic, Yetziratic, and Assiatic perceptions. From that state, they no longer have the purity you described and, therefore, don't have any power that necessarily arises from it. "I mean access to atziluth as a magister templi is supposed to have. Of course, i see, the very act of talking about it makes it "fall" from at least a world.
Is Magister Templi grade so rare?
It seems logical considering all it gets to master from hermetic point of vue, but, on the other hand, when taoists and Crowley himself say some people actually attain without even being involved consciously in those things... I guess these are exceptions they use to make a point, but still. I wonder for instance how many 8=3(or equivalent from other system) there are on average, in average europe countries, for instance UK, Germany, France, or in the US. Would you have an idea or guess of possible number?"
"Is an Adept actually able to feel/master this("universal"qabala) to some significant extent already?"I don't know what you mean by "universal qabala, so I can't answer that question."
I mean something similar to what Bardon calls "qabala". That is, a qabala as adogmatic as possible, based on pure vibrations, musical notes, elemental attribution, color, yin and yang, and atziluthic idea underlying it. Thus such a qabala is universal as no related to human langage, and works on all planes as a powerful magick formula. Bardon says, if i understand right, that he who masters this is a "true adept"
(i think its euphemism for "magister templi" but maybe no thus the question). I wonder to what extent the average Adept Minor, Major or Exemptus masters this kind of qabala."
"Percieving directly behind all veils of mind?"Of course not. (Except in certain moments, and upon necessity.) Part of what is deeply precious about an Adept is the particular veiling and limiting and distinction the layers of mind formulate to excude a particular, distinctive emergence of being in the world. The mission likely would fail if "all veils of mind" were transparent. An Adept is blessed with highly distinctive blinders."
Interesting ! Are those "blinders" in the way you mean it mostly those which remains at that point "naturally" or is it more to be understood as something new which comes actively at that point, in a sense where "because"(maybe) of the newly achieved Briatic consciousness related mind expansion, there is a need of "framing" the man with a "counterweight" so as he doesnt get too distracted by some kind of temptations of the mind?
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"Using the real power of the planes behind?"What does that mean? (What level of Adept do you mean? This phrase might have very different meaning for a Major or Exempt adept than for a Minor one.)"
I'd be interested to hear the differences between Minor, Major and Exemptconcerning this. By "this" i mean that i mentioned above. The "universal" or "instant" qabala. "instant" as there is no need of ritual, nor preparation. All one has to do is focus on all planes at the same time and "utter" a word... and thats it. As i understand it, the highest the point of vue from which this is done, the highest the power gets.
If an Adept who by definition is initiated of Briah, can have at peak experiences access to Atziluth, maybe he can use ritual for uplifting himself to atziluth, and then from there perform the superior magick? But it may be dangerous if he's not karma-free while using "beyond karma" technique...? Because if one connects to atziluth and from there performs qabala magick, he "truly acts as a god" and therefore he is subject to direct divine law.
Once again and as you mentioned, its difficult to make distinction between briah and atziluth, especially from the perspective of human langage communication.
And as i'm not "even" an adept, the only difference i can feel consciously is a matter of degree of the same thing. Feels like Atziluth is the same as Briah, with the only difference it is more subtle and powerful as a type of emanation/reality. Any tip to feel it a little more clear(this distinction briah-atziluth) from a humble level of non-adept?"
"What type of test could be appropriate for Adept level concerning this type of skill?"Which skill exactly? - The testing of the Adept within the Order is by his or her immediate Superior."
That same skill. The qabala magick. For instance (an idea) a test could be a similar one to that of 4=7(visible evocation)with the difference the only method allowed to achieve this is the utterance of a single word, within a time constraint(for instance the superior gives the name of an unknown being which is to be evoked by Adept Minor, and he for he pass to Major Grade has 10 seconds to make it visible by using the above technique. Or levitation. "let the adept elevate herself physically into the air by the utterance of a single word newly created by her" stuff like that...?
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@Faus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" An Adept is blessed with highly distinctive blinders."That is strangely enlightening
Are those “blinds” necessary to the expression of his True Will?"A True WIll is a distinctive expression. It is best expressed by one who exists solely for one purpose and, to a certain extent, is unfitted for other purposes.
This isn't to disparage wide diversification of interests, enjoyments, knowledge, etc. - Adepts are most typically "Renaissance men and women." Nor is it to deny that, ultimately, there is no difference between any one thing and any other.
But a True Will relies on a firm distinction - a difference - between one thing and all other things for that individual. One is "divided for love's sake," to be a particular thing most fully. One must have access to the widest range of capacities and options, because one doesn't necessarily know in advance what one will need to unfold the particular distinctive self that one is embodying.
Later - especially in the Path of Zayin - those distinctions will unite back into a whole. But, when this happens, we are no longer talking about an Adept.
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@Frater Horus said
"Is Magister Templi grade so rare?
"Yes. Exceedingly rare, despite the dip-shit claims to the contrary.
The Next Step for humanity in the new aeon is the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel - Adepthood. Over the course of the next many hundreds of years, humanity will evolve to where it is more commonplace - but it's the Next Step of the species as a whole for the NEXT Aeon, not this one.
It was sometimes frustrating to Soror Meral, and is sometimes frustrating to me, that so many people skip right past thinking of the Adept stage - the K&C of the HGA - which is real target of mature development in the Aeon of Horus. It's so faddish to "cross the Abyss" that the tourist trade should surely be flourishing with weekend jaunts if it were so accessible. People who aren't yet in a place to have the slightest idea what adepthood is can be found skipping right over it as a topic in order to talk about something as far past the new adept as he or she is above a groundhog.
"I wonder for instance how many 8=3(or equivalent from other system) there are on average, in average europe countries, for instance UK, Germany, France, or in the US. Would you have an idea or guess of possible number?"
Ignoring those who simply have a title (titles are easy), and ignoring those who may have attained to what the Golden Dawn would have called 8=3 (which is roughly A.'.A.', 5=6), I'd say the number is significantly less than 1% of 1% of 1% of the population. At today's population estimate of just over 7,176,000,000 (increasing by 2.5 people per second), that would be about 7,000 in the world - which is way too high an estimate. I doubt there are 1,000 in the world. With the current European population of 741,000,000 or so, that that would suggest perhaps 100 across Europe.
I am, of course, estimating. I'm not entirely ill-equipped to estimate, but understand it's an estimate. Take it for what it's worth to you.
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"Is an Adept actually able to feel/master this("universal"qabala) to some significant extent already?"I don't know what you mean by "universal qabala, so I can't answer that question."
"I mean something similar to what Bardon calls "qabala"."
I haven't read Bardon in over 30 years, and at present don't have a clue what he meant (let alone what you understand him to mean
) by that. Your own words are better."That is, a qabala as adogmatic as possible, based on pure vibrations, musical notes, elemental attribution, color, yin and yang, and atziluthic idea underlying it."
Oh, LOL. Energy. Vibes. Freqencies. (It would never have occurred to me in a hundred yeas to call that 'Qabbalah,.' so I appreciate your clarification of how you are using the word.)
"Bardon says, if i understand right, that he who masters this is a "true adept"
(i think its euphemism for "magister templi" but maybe no thus the question)."Depending on application, I think he meant what the A.'.A.'. calls a Major Adept 6=5.
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"An Adept is blessed with highly distinctive blinders."Interesting ! Are those "blinders" in the way you mean it mostly those which remains at that point "naturally" or is it more to be understood as something new which comes actively at that point, in a sense where "because"(maybe) of the newly achieved Briatic consciousness related mind expansion, there is a need of "framing" the man with a "counterweight" so as he doesnt get too distracted by some kind of temptations of the mind? "
A bit of both (if I understand your Part 2 correctly). See my other answer here which addresses that line more specifically.
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"Using the real power of the planes behind?"What does that mean? (What level of Adept do you mean? This phrase might have very different meaning for a Major or Exempt adept than for a Minor one.)"
I'd be interested to hear the differences between Minor, Major and Exemptconcerning this."
I'm not going to take the time to write a book here.
"The "universal" or "instant" qabala. "instant" as there is no need of ritual, nor preparation"
Depending on the individual, how he or she is constituted, and what he or she exists to do in life, this may never occur. OTOH, it most likely would occur in an instant given sufficient necessity. (I find myself emphasizing this point a great deal lately. There is too little attention to the role of necessity in matters of ability.)
"All one has to do is focus on all planes at the same time and "utter" a word... and thats it. As i understand it, the highest the point of vue from which this is done, the highest the power gets. "
Or it's just boring. We are creatures constituted to create complexity and play in it. Most people with the least bit of enlightenment could do what you say at once, with little training and just a little awakening. But we don't. We exist to play, to embody a story, and the capacity you mention would simply dismantle the whole story of our lives and reality. When one is ready and this is the necessary next step, it's there and available. A Major Adept in A.'.A.'. actually drills for this sort of thing - a drill that began at Dominus Liminis at least - but anyone can come to do that in short order if they're truly ready to open the eye of Shiva and drop all consensual reality at once.
I'd consider the "highest power" to be quite the opposite: To incarnate and build a life in the first place!
"If an Adept who by definition is initiated of Briah, can have at peak experiences access to Atziluth, maybe he can use ritual for uplifting himself to atziluth, and then from there perform the superior magick?"
Or it's much simpler than that: Don't be so fucking egoic to assume that you have to be the one to do it. Basic magical procedure in the first place starts with creating the channels that open yourself to a particular Divine Power moving through you - to be an agency. Even a Neophyte can do this a bit. A Minor Adept is already doing it in a highly personalized way. A Major Adept is more or less living that reality - simply being a hollow channel for a selected Divine Reality to move and express through. The only separation between that and what you describe is that you expect that a being still egoically defined as you is doing it.
For those who live a life of service, and already know that they are simply a channel for a Divine actuality to live and express through... you're just describing how life looks and works.
"But it may be dangerous if he's not karma-free while using "beyond karma" technique...? Because if one connects to atziluth and from there performs qabala magick, he "truly acts as a god" and therefore he is subject to direct divine law."
Everyone is a direct subject of Divine Law.
"Once again and as you mentioned, its difficult to make distinction between briah and atziluth, especially from the perspective of human langage communication.
And as i'm not "even" an adept, the only difference i can feel consciously is a matter of degree of the same thing. Feels like Atziluth is the same as Briah, with the only difference it is more subtle and powerful as a type of emanation/reality. Any tip to feel it a little more clear(this distinction briah-atziluth) from a humble level of non-adept? "Tip? Attain to the K&C of the HGA. Awaken to Briah, and let your heart be pierced with the Atziluthic spear that runs through the length of you.
Yes, I understand that it seems a matter of degree - but it isn't. They are nearly the opposite in some respects. Briah is entirely receptive toward Atziluth, the infinite and unhistantly embracing Yoni to the Divine Lingam. But to Yetzirah, Briah is the Messenger of the Divine (just as Yetzirah serves this angelic function to Assiah). To one receiving the messenger, the true servant (so to speak), it isn't necessarily possible to distinguish it from the One that is served.
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Fascinating...
As for estimation of possibly 100 magister in europe, that's awesome, as one can rather easily meet one wherever he lives. It's not like there are three of them, hidden in a cave of himalaya or something.
Would you have an advice/idea concerning how to approach such an initiate? I mean, it might sound dumb but i dont see what could i ask such a "person".
As the Adept already can guide concerning the highest intellectual stuff and interaction of planes... what type of questions/things could be pertinent to ask/do so that the answer may not be redondant with that a lower grade could give...?
Or could a good idea be just say nothing and enjoy the silence with the master as maybe it is at that thing he is the less redudant with the skill of the lower grades from the point of vue of a non-adept...?
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@Frater Horus said
"Would you have an advice/idea concerning how to approach such an initiate?"
There is a long-standing teaching that remains true in my experience: They find you when they need you. (I used to say commonly in class, "No, I don't have the phone number of the Secret Chiefs... but they have mine.")
"Or could a good idea be just say nothing and enjoy the silence with the master as maybe it is at that thing he is the less redudant with the skill of the lower grades from the point of vue of a non-adept...?
"There were a couple of times that Soror Meral, when discussing with me a certain individual of the past or present, would remark that they simply didn't have the initiation to be able to recognize a Master (or even an Adept) when they saw one. That sounded right at the time, but it took me many years before it was really obvious how right she was.
She wasn't just talking about idiots by any means. For example, one of the people we were talking about was Regardie when he first met Crowley as a young man. He could respect him at an intellectual level etc., but really didn't have the capacity to see what was before him, even living with him day to day. He later understood much better in hindsight, when he was very far along the Path.
PS - I probably grossly over-estimated on that 100. I was trying to be generous.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I haven't read Bardon in over 30 years"
So it was an early reading
His system seems interesting to me, and definitely "exotic", it has a pleasing, "special flavor" ! I'd be curious to know how you'd see Bardon's material now, 30 years after -
His three books are four feet from me as I type. It's not likely touch them in the foreseeable future. They really haven’t anything to do with the work that's mine to do.
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All,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
@Frater Horus said
"Fascinating... As for estimation of possibly 100 magister in europe"
You guys seem to have forgotten about something - soon there will be 101 of them in Europe! How on earth could you forget about little me?
@Frater Horus said
"Would you have an advice/idea concerning how to approach such an initiate? I mean, it might sound dumb but i dont see what could i ask such a "person"."
This is really funny and makes me giggle. The thought has never struck you that you are talking to one in this thread already?
But it doesn’t matter, no matter how knowledgeable you are, you won’t be able to recognize any Master before your heart is awakened and thoroughly purified.Inflame thyself in prayer…
You are not only unaware of the light within, you are also “blind” and not of the “seeing”. True “Sight” actually comes from feeling – thus seeing another human being from one’s heart. The heart is the gateway to heaven, se the paths on the Tree of life’s, at the center of all – there it is – there is Tipharet the Son, directly connected with Kether the Father! It will thus be a man’s awakened heart recognizing the Master, not one’s head.
Therefore as Mr. Eshelman has said:
It was sometimes frustrating to Soror Meral, and is sometimes frustrating to me, that so many people skip right past thinking of the Adept stage - the K&C of the HGA - which is real target of mature development in the Aeon of Horus.
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Horus said
"Would you have an advice/idea concerning how to approach such an initiate?"
There is a long-standing teaching that remains true in my experience: They find you when they need you. (I used to say commonly in class, "No, I don't have the phone number of the Secret Chiefs... but they have mine."."And that’s how it works… I had never met a real Master in my whole life (not that I had been aware of) and now last year, when I almost was about to hang myself, I suddenly stumble upon one and was able to move on with my initiation. It was no mere coincidence that I myself was pulled towards these forums… It was perfectly arranged...
It makes no difference for anyone if he is able to recognize a Master (I simply don’t care even though I’m aware of one of these cute little “thumb-suckers”!
) The Master is like a beacon of light, a blessing, working on everybody in his immediate surroundings whenever they are aware of it or not. Also, Crowley an Ipsissimus, 10=1, the prophet of this new aeon, the word of God incarnated! – is available in a simple bookstore – it’s all there – this one single-pointed piece of advice:The K & C with one’s HGA
Everything else is simply black magick and a waste of time… There are no intelligent or special questions to be asked of a Master because his reply (if truly a Master) will always in a sense reflect the answer: “How does this question help you in achieving this single-pointed goal?” Moving you closer to it…
When this goal is achieved, in reality, all has then been achieved.
Love is the law, love under will.
Peace
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@Jim Eshelman said
"His three books are four feet from me as I type. It's not likely touch them in the foreseeable future. They really haven’t anything to do with the work that's mine to do."
There have been four foot from you for thirty years?
Maybe they even follow you in the astral, begging to be read -
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Horus said
"Would you have an advice/idea concerning how to approach such an initiate?"
There is a long-standing teaching that remains true in my experience: They find you when they need you. (I used to say commonly in class, "No, I don't have the phone number of the Secret Chiefs... but they have mine."."
"Thank you Hawk.
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@ld330 said
"Sorry if this is a little off topic, but with the 100 magisters thing, does anyone have an estimate how many people in the US or in the world would be at the 2=9 or 5=6 stage (A.'.A.'.)?"
A lot more
PS - Are you speaking of that level, or of those who have formally attained through the system?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@ld330 said
"Sorry if this is a little off topic, but with the 100 magisters thing, does anyone have an estimate how many people in the US or in the world would be at the 2=9 or 5=6 stage (A.'.A.'.)?"A lot more
PS - Are you speaking of that level, or of those who have formally attained through the system?"
Haha I figured, Timothy Leary gave a couple of figures for his 8-circuit model in the Intelligence Agents, he said around 2 million Americans were full-on circuit 5/self actualized (which I interpreted as at least 2=9). That was in the 70s though.
I'm speaking of the level of awareness of that stage, not just the A.'.A.'. in particular, but that would be interesting too