Skip to content

College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema

  • A∴A∴
  • College of Thelema
  • Temple of Thelema
  • Publications
  • Forum
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups
Collapse

Tzaddi is not the Star

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Qabbalah
190 Posts 37 Posters 114.6k Views 2 Watching
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • H Heru

    I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

    Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
    The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

    The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

    To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

    The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

    So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
    Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

    When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

    Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

    H Offline
    H Offline
    Hermitas
    wrote on last edited by
    #175

    Well, I can't find that quote. I wanna say it was instead in some rabbi's commentary, but since I can't produce it and since nobody else seems to recognize it, I'll stop brining it up.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • H Heru

      I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

      Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
      The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

      The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

      To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

      The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

      So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
      Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

      When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

      Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

      H Offline
      H Offline
      Hermitas
      wrote on last edited by
      #176

      Found it. From the Zohar.

      "26. Subsequently, the letter Tzadik appeared before the Creator and said: “Master of the world, You should create the world with me, for Tzadikim (the righteous) are marked by me. You, who is called a Tzadik (righteous one), are also recorded within me, for You are righteous and You love righteousness. Therefore, my properties are suitable to create the world by.”

      The Creator answered: “Tzadik, you are truly righteous, but you must remain concealed and not be revealed to the extent required were the world to be created by you, so as to not give the world an excuse.” The concealment of the letter Tzadik is necessary, for first came the letter Nun, which was then joined by the letter Yod from the Creator’s Holy Name Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey (HaVaYaH), who stood above it as a mark of the bond between the Creator and His creations, mounted the letter Nun and joined it on its right hand side, thereby creating the letter Tzadik."

      It's... not as suggestive as I thought it was, but somebody tried to make the point once, and it stuck with me.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • H Heru

        I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

        Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
        The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

        The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

        To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

        The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

        So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
        Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

        When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

        Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

        J Offline
        J Offline
        Jim Eshelman
        wrote on last edited by
        #177

        Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?

        Or maybe the paragraph on Heh in 32vPaths of Wisdom? I'm not remembering quote but recall tone as similar.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • H Heru

          I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

          Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
          The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

          The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

          To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

          The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

          So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
          Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

          When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

          Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

          J Offline
          J Offline
          Jim Eshelman
          wrote on last edited by
          #178

          Aion, now that I'm not commuting and can look something up... I wonder if you were remembering the tone (more than the specific language) of the paragraph on Hé from The 32 Paths of Wisdom. It translates as follows:

          @32PW on H said

          "The Fifteenth Path is called the Constituting Consciousness, because it constitutes the Substance of Creation in pure darkness. According to masters of contemplation, this is that darkness referred to in Scripture, “and thick darkness its swaddling band.”"

          The phrase I translated “pure darkness” is arafeley tahor. Kaplan, who translated it “Glooms of Purity,” remarked that this expression is found in the Musaf service for Rash Hashanah at the beginning of Shofrot, relating to the revelation at Sinai. Arafeley comes from a similar word meaning “the darkness of clouds” or “thick clouds;” hence Kaplan’s “gloom.” Tahor, “pure” (=220), is the name the mode of consciousness attributed to Y’sod.

          "Masters of contemplation" likely means those that have mastered dhyana, and certainly no one without this capacity is likely to be able to perceive the condition described.

          The closing phrase. “thick darkness its swaddling band,” is a direct quote from Job 38:9, va-arafel ḥathoollatho.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • H Heru

            I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

            Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
            The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

            The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

            To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

            The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

            So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
            Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

            When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

            Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

            H Offline
            H Offline
            Hermitas
            wrote on last edited by
            #179

            @Jim Eshelman said

            "Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?"

            I'm not sure why that version I cut and pasted uses "Tzadik" with the k on the end. But, yes, I'm referring to the letter.

            Thanks for the quote from 32 Paths of Wisdom as well.

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • H Heru

              I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

              Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
              The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

              The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

              To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

              The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

              So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
              Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

              When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

              Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

              J Offline
              J Offline
              Jim Eshelman
              wrote on last edited by
              #180

              I wasn't worried about the K. You said you were looking for a quote on Hé being hidden, and I was asking if maybe you meant the passage I referenced about Tzaddiy being hidden (from the Zohar, in the story of how Alef got to be the first letter of the alphabet).

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • H Heru

                I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                H Offline
                H Offline
                Hermitas
                wrote on last edited by
                #181

                @Jim Eshelman said

                "Aion, are you sure you aren't thinking of the same remark about Tzaddiy?"

                Yes, that's the one. I think maybe you missed where I quoted it above your post. It's the first post after the page break, so.. Unless I'm completely missing your intent.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • H Heru

                  I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                  Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                  The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                  The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                  To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                  The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                  So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                  Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                  When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                  Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                  C Offline
                  C Offline
                  Coagvla
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #182

                  My twobits for what it's worth, the line 'double loop of the zodiac' bent my mind for many years. Many times I
                  have yelled at my BoT 'but it only loops once!!!!'....but Jim is right of course

                  Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • H Heru

                    I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                    Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                    The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                    The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                    To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                    The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                    So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                    Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                    When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                    Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                    J Offline
                    J Offline
                    Jim Eshelman
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #183

                    I am fascinated that this thread has had over 80,000 views!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • H Heru

                      I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                      Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                      The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                      The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                      To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                      The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                      So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                      Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                      When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                      Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                      T Offline
                      T Offline
                      Takamba
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #184

                      @Jim Eshelman said

                      "I am fascinated that this thread has had over 80,000 views!"

                      I imagine the subject matter is quite a search-bot magnet. It's also quite a long thread, which means many of us have viewed it again and again and again. 😄 I see it as 80,666 views. 👿

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • H Heru

                        I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                        Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                        The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                        The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                        To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                        The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                        So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                        Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                        When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                        Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                        H Offline
                        H Offline
                        Hermitas
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #185

                        It was just all me reading it over and over again to figure out where I missed Jim at the end.

                        Yes, Jim, apparently I said the one and meant the other. Sorry. I hate when I do that. Sometimes I could just fill myself.

                        <G>

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • H Heru

                          I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                          Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                          The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                          The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                          To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                          The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                          So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                          Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                          When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                          Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                          K Offline
                          K Offline
                          Knowledge + Delight
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #186

                          93

                          Sorry to bump this behemoth back into life, .... but I've been digging into this whole mess lately, and would like to take a stab at summarizing this in as clear a manner as possible (and to verify I have this correct in the first place!)

                          1: Prior to the Golden Dawn, the generally accepted trump order was that of Eliphas Levi (I won't bother detailing the earlier arrangements), which has the curious quirk of placing '0 - the Fool' between XX and XXI,

                          "
                          To make it quite clear to initiates that they did not understand the meaning of the card called The Fool, they put him down between Atu cards XX and XXI, for what reason it baffles the human imagination to conceive. They then attributed the card number I, the Juggler, to the letter Aleph. In this simple yet ingenious manner they got the attribution of every card, except The Universe, XXI, wrong.
                          -- Crowley
                          "

                          2: Golden Dawn makes two key changes; '0 - the Fool' is promoted to the first of the trumps, advancing all other cards by one letter (which also brings the letter=zodiac attributions in line with the Sepher Yetzirah), and 2: Mathers swaps the ATU images around for Strength (Fortitude) and Justice to 'fix' their images with the zodiac, which pretty clearly depict Leo/Libra. The Roman numbering is preserved by natural order of the cards.

                          3: "Tzaddi is not the Star", and here we are. Crowley swaps the Emperor & the Star cards, keeping the roman numbers IV & XVII attached to them, and additionally 'restores' the original numerals of Justice as VIII and Strength as XI (his reasoning undoubtedly reinforced by his Qabalistic interpretations of these numbers). It is this arrangement of the 'original' roman numerals, when the zodiac cards are ordered by their hebrew letters, which gives rise to the infamous 'double loop' pattern.

                          It should be noted though how this change was made, for Crowley has not moved the hebrew letters around for the Tzaddi switch - as HEH remains on path 15 and TZADDI on path 28 - but he has swapped all the other attributes of the Tarot cards: the ATU, roman numeral, and associated zodiac sign. In switching the zodiac signs with his change to IV & XVII, however, he has broken with the Sepher Yetzirah attribution of TZADDI=Aquarius and HE=Aries, and created a one-sided 'loop' in the zodiac.

                          Situation sound about right?

                          This is most clearly illustrated as a whole; (see attached image);
                          center -> out: path#, hebrew letter, zodiac, atu, roman numeral

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • H Heru

                            I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                            Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                            The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                            The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                            To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                            The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                            So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                            Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                            When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                            Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                            M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Modest
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #187

                            Yes, you got it right - in so many words. We have two designs:
                            Waite Tarot: letters, numbers and zodiac forming a circle
                            Crowley Thoth Tarot (Jim picked this one): letters, numbers forming a double loop and zodiac forming only a single loop at Leo & Libra

                            And My picked imaginary Tarot: letters, numbers and zodiac forming a double loop thus requiring recoloring and change of symbolism the card The Emperor being Tzaddi - Aquarius and The Star - He - Aries. That is why I bought the Marseille's deck.

                            To put it simple I re quote Jim and myself:

                            Me: I see in Waite's arrangement a harmony of letters, numbers and zodiac forming a circle.
                            Jim: Unfortunately, it's wrong. His biggest weakness was in being overly mentally formal (i.e., stuffy).
                            Me: The double loop in Jim's arrangement has the harmony of letters and numbers but not the zodiac.
                            Jim: Exactly. The letters vs. numbers pattern seems to be what matters. (Think of it from the point of view of Tarot's designers.)

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • H Heru

                              I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                              Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                              The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                              The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                              To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                              The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                              So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                              Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                              When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                              Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                              M Offline
                              M Offline
                              Modest
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #188

                              I was reading Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot by Lon Milo Duquette and the author is incorrect in table 8 & figure 25 claiming that there is a double loop in the zodiac. In accord with table 8 there is no double loop but a single loop from Leo-Virgo-Libra to Libra-Virgo-Leo and therefore figure 25 is incorrect. To make matters worse the author claims that there is a change in sequence "from Aquarius-Pisces-Aries to Aries-Pisces-Aquarius" thereby implying that The Star is Aries and the Emperor is Aquarius but later in the book denies it by stating that The Star is Aquarius and the Emperor is Aries.

                              Lon Milo Duquette contradicts himself by trying to solve Crowley's contradictions - what a mess. At least Jim finally agreed that there is no double loop in the zodiac in Crowley's Thoth Tarot but Duquette is trying to "understand" and failing to prove the double loop in the zodiac.

                              Is anyone aware of any books that write about the "tzaddi is not he star" problem besides Aleister Crowley, Freida Harris, Robert Wang, Gareth Knight, and Lon Milo Duquette?

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • H Heru

                                I've been looking at Crowley's Emperor / Star swap just lately. As far as I can see the swap solves one problem but creates another.

                                Crowley's swap seems to correct the attribution to the text of the Thirty-Two Paths of Wisdom.
                                The text for the 15th path and it's traditional Golden Dawn attribution of the Emperor reads:

                                The Fifteenth Path is the Constituting Intelligence, so called because it constitutes the substance of creation in pure darkness, and men have spoken of these contemplations; it is that darkness spoken of in scripture, Job xxxviii. 9, "and thick darkness a swaddling band for it."

                                To me the Star is a much better fit for that text than the Emperor. Equally the text for the 28th path seems to correspond better to the Emperor than it's traditional attribution to the Star:

                                The Twenty-eighth Path is the Natural Intelligence, and is so called because through it is consummated and perfected the nature of every existent being under the orb of the Sun, in perfection.

                                So far Crowley's swap is all well and good and seems to have smoothed out all the little problems in the Golden Dawn attributions. But in the act of solving one problem it creates another.
                                Crowley says that the Emperor is attributed the astrological sign of Aries and placed on the 28th path, and the Star is Aquarius and placed on the 15th. This breaks with the Yetziratic tradition that says that Heh = Aries = 15th path. Tzaddi = Aquarius = 28th path.

                                When you swap the astrological signs around to conform with their respective cards, they don't seem to fit any more. This is quite frustrating. I mean, Aries on the 28th path between Yesod and Netzach! How does that work? I can understand the placement of the Emperor there but not the sign of Aries. It just doesn't fit.

                                Crowley's swap seems to solve one problem by creating another. Are Crowley's apparent mix ups in the Book of Thoth intended to show that both old and new attributions are correct?

                                M Offline
                                M Offline
                                Modest
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #189

                                Okay, mystery solved. I claim that Crowley's innovation is the double loop in the zodiac as opposed Golden Dawn/Waite/Case zodiac circle - anything other is not perfect symmetry. As there is no double loop in the zodiac in Crowley's Thoth Tarot it means that the Thoth Tarot is based on the zodiac circle so the attributions are the same as in Golden Dawn/Waite/Case Tarot - Lust-Teth-Leo being atu 8 and Adjustment-Lamed-Libra 11, The Emperor-He-Aries 4, The Star-Tzaddi-Aquarius. Crowley and Freida Harris created a standard attribution Golden Dawn Tarot pack leaving out "Tzaddi is not the Star"/"double loop in the zodiac" material. The Thoth Tarot book is another matter as it deals with Crowley's various ideas and innovations.
                                Finally no need to make Crowley's Thoth Tarot what it is not - it is not based on the "Tzaddi is not the Star" material it's attributions are totally the same as Waite/Case Tarot. Unfortunately I haven't seen a deck made with the "double loop in the zodiac" attributions and colors so I use Marseilles Tarot for these.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • christianbryantC Online
                                  christianbryantC Online
                                  christianbryant
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #190

                                  93

                                  The swap is often contrasted against Jewish Kabbalah and the Jewish tradition of gematria.

                                  There is a technical logic to Crowley’s swap, but it is mostly Thelemic / Golden Dawn tarot-system logic, not a clean Hebrew-gematria or Jewish-kabbalistic logic.

                                  Crowley’s own stated move is clear: the line in Liber AL says “Tzaddi is not the Star,” and in the New Comment he resolves it by saying Tzaddi is The Emperor, and Heh is The Star; therefore Aries and Aquarius are counterchanged, producing what he calls “perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical” tarot attributions. [1]

                                  In Book of Thoth, he implements that literally: The Emperor is assigned to Tzaddi and Aries, while The Star is assigned to Heh and Aquarius. [2]

                                  The problem is that this does not preserve the older Hebrew-letter astrology found in Sefer Yetzirah. In the Sefaria text, the twelve simple letters are tied to the zodiac, with Heh forming Aries and Tzadi forming Aquarius. [3]

                                  That same structure is echoed in Crowley’s own 777 table before the swap: Heh = 5 = Aries = tarot IV, and Tzaddi = 90/900 = Aquarius = tarot XVII. [4]

                                  So from the standpoint of Hebrew alphabet order and classical letter-zodiac attribution, the old system is actually cleaner.

                                  Where Crowley’s move becomes “mathematical” is not gematria in the usual Jewish sense, but symmetry of tarot/zodiac geometry. He compares the Emperor/Star swap to the earlier Strength/Justice swap: Leo and Libra rotate around Virgo; Aries and Aquarius rotate around Pisces. His wording is explicit: Aries and Aquarius flank Pisces, just as Leo and Libra flank Virgo. [5]

                                  In other words, he is treating the zodiac as a loop and introducing a second “twist” to balance the first one. That is elegant inside his tarot architecture, a bit like making the graph prettier after discovering one edge is crossed.

                                  But as gematria, it is weak. Heh has the value 5; Tzaddi has 90 or final 900 in Crowley’s own table. [6]

                                  The Emperor is IV, The Star is XVII. There is no obvious Hebrew numerical equation where 5 or 90 “proves” Emperor or Star. In fact, before the swap, the ordinal structure is elegant: Fool = 0, Magus = I, Empress = III, Emperor = IV, so Heh, the 5th Hebrew letter, naturally falls on the 5th trump if the Fool is counted as zero. Likewise Tzaddi, the 18th letter, naturally falls on Trump XVII as the 18th trump. Crowley’s swap breaks that.

                                  There is one cute gematric coincidence, though: the Hebrew zodiac names for Aries and Aquarius both total 44 in standard gematria. Aries, טלה, is 9 + 30 + 5 = 44; Aquarius, דלי, is 4 + 30 + 10 = 44. Crowley’s own table gives these Hebrew sign spellings and the component letter values. [6]

                                  That makes Aries/Aquarius a surprisingly “legal-looking” pair to exchange at the level of sign-names. But that is a supporting curiosity, not a derivation. It does not explain why Tzaddi, specifically, should become Aries.

                                  From a Jewish mystical standpoint, the swap is hard to defend as traditional Kabbalah. Sefaria’s Sefer Yetzirah material gives the basic letter-zodiac map, and Rabbeinu Bahya also describes the 22 Hebrew letters as corresponding to wind/water/fire, the seven fixed stars/planets, and the 12 zodiac signs. [7]

                                  None of that requires tarot, and none of it suggests swapping Heh and Tzaddi. So if the test is “does this preserve Hebrew/Kabbalistic letter attribution?” the answer is no.

                                  Crowley’s swap is important and logical within Crowley’s initiatory tarot system, because it makes the Thoth deck’s symbolic architecture line up with his reading of Liber AL and with his desired zodiacal symmetry. But it is not logically compelled by Hebrew gematria or classical Jewish mysticism. It is a deliberate Thelemic override of the older Sefer Yetzirah-style correspondences — elegant as occult engineering, but not “kosher” as Hebrew-letter tradition.

                                  Crowley’s stated reason is this: Liber AL forced him to re-examine the inherited Golden Dawn tarot attributions. In Book of Thoth, he says the phrase “Tzaddi is not the Star” answered his own mental doubt about whether the old attributions were right. He says he tried for years to solve the problem, and only much later saw that The Star must be exchanged with The Emperor. The New Comment gives the same solution: Tzaddi = Emperor, Heh = Star, with Aries and Aquarius counterchanged. [8]

                                  The strongest technical reason he gives is zodiacal symmetry. Crowley says the earlier Golden Dawn correction had already swapped Justice and Strength, producing a balanced rotation around Virgo: Leo and Libra on either side of Virgo. His Emperor/Star swap creates a matching symmetry around Pisces: Aries and Aquarius on either side of Pisces. So the “why” is not primarily gematria; it is a structural correction to the zodiacal sequence of the tarot trumps. [9]

                                  The more interesting clue is that the command “Tzaddi is not the Star” appears in Liber AL immediately after language about the “law of the fortress” and the “House of God.” Crowley identifies the House of God with the Tower, Atu XVI, and in Book of Thoth he explicitly connects the Tower card to that verse. That matters because the Tower is Mars, while the Emperor is Aries, a Mars-ruled sign. So the hidden trail may run: House of God / Tower / Mars → Aries → Emperor, rather than simply “Star is wrong, swap two labels.” That is an inference, but it is a pretty strong one inside Crowley’s own symbolic map. [10]

                                  Crowley also gives a symbolic reason for why The Star becomes Heh. In Book of Thoth, The Star is Nuit, the Lady of the Stars, pouring from two vessels; he links the imagery to the Great Mother, Binah, the Sea, and Babalon as a materialization of Nuit. Elsewhere in the same chapter, he says it is natural for the Great Mother to be attributed to Heh, because Heh is “her letter” in Tetragrammaton. That is probably the most coherent internal reason for removing Heh from the Emperor and giving it to the Star. [11]

                                  For the opposite half, Crowley tries to justify why The Emperor becomes Tzaddi by phonetics and rulership imagery. In Book of Thoth, the Emperor is Aries, fiery authority, paternal creative force, and power descending from Chokmah to Tiphareth. He then says the sound-root TZ / TS appears in words of rulership such as Tsar, Czar, Caesar, Senior, Seigneur, Signor, and Sir. This is not traditional Hebrew gematria; it is Crowley’s comparative-philological occult wordplay. But within his system, it gives Tzaddi a “ruler” flavor rather than an “Aquarian Star” flavor. [12]

                                  There is also a striking breadcrumb in Book of Lies. In the commentary to “Ninety-One,” Crowley says 90 is the number of Tzaddi, and then describes “the Star” in its exoteric sense as the naked woman by the stream. That is fascinating because it suggests he already regarded the Tzaddi-Star attribution as a surface-level or outward meaning, not necessarily the final secret one. It is not the full solution, but it is exactly the kind of sideways hint one would expect from Crowley. [13]

                                  A second possible hidden clue appears in Liber Arcanorum. In the stanza numbered 4, corresponding to the Emperor position, Crowley writes of dominion being established in the “Star of the Flame.” That does not explicitly say “Tzaddi is the Emperor,” but it does entangle Emperor-number symbolism, dominion, star imagery, and fire/Horus imagery before the later Book of Thoth exposition. The stanza for 17, the Star position, also makes the “holy virgin” undergo a fiery transformation rather than presenting the Star as merely passive or watery. [14]

                                  But the cross-referencing also reveals a real problem. In Crowley’s older 777-style tables, the pre-swap system is clean: Heh = Aries = Emperor, and Tzaddi = Aquarius = Star. The Tree of Life paths also fit that older arrangement: the Aries/Emperor path joins Chokmah to Tiphareth, while the Aquarius/Star path joins Netzach to Yesod. Yet in Book of Thoth, after the swap, Crowley still describes the Emperor’s authority as descending from Chokmah to Tiphareth — the old Heh/Aries/Emperor path. So the swap is not a simple “put Emperor onto Tzaddi’s old Tree path.” It is more like Crowley is correcting the tarot-letter keys while preserving zodiacal and Tree-of-Life functions in a more complicated double register. [15]

                                  And there is one more complication from Liber Aleph: Crowley elsewhere says the “Letter of the Man” is Tzaddi, whose number is 90, and links it with Maim, water. That sounds much closer to the older Aquarius/man/water symbolism than to Aries/Emperor/fire. So across Crowley’s corpus, Tzaddi does not become purely “Emperor-like.” It retains older Aquarian and watery resonances even after the formal tarot correction. [16]

                                  Crowley’s real reason was not gematria. It was a Thelemic correction of tarot’s zodiacal architecture, triggered by Liber AL and solved through symmetry. The swap allowed him to make The Star into a more perfect image of Nuit / Heh / Great Mother, and The Emperor into Tzaddi / rulership / Aries / Horus-force. But the deeper one digs into his own symbolic tables, the more it looks like a deliberate esoteric override rather than a clean restoration of Hebrew-letter tradition.

                                  In other words: Crowley’s swap is internally meaningful, and (likely) not random. But it is “logical” in Crowley’s sense of symbolic Qabalah — poetic, geometrical, phonetic, initiatory — not in the stricter sense of Hebrew gematria or inherited Jewish letter astrology.

                                  In that is Thelema. Do What Thou Wilt, indeed.

                                  93 93/93

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  2

                                  Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.

                                  Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.

                                  With your input, this post could be even better 💗

                                  Register Login

                                  • Login

                                  • Don't have an account? Register

                                  • Login or register to search.
                                  • First post
                                    Last post
                                  0
                                  • Categories
                                  • Recent
                                  • Tags
                                  • Popular
                                  • Users
                                  • Groups