In knowledge conversion with?
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@SetiDraconis said
"If you dont mind explaing how could your Evil Genius lead you down to ruin?"
That's what it is: The antithesis of everything in your psyche (and probably karma field) that is untrue to your actual nature, but somehow seductive due to some part of you that wants to cling to untruths about yourself. Conjoin yourself with that and call it God, and you're all set for troubles.
"what if it was his true Will to be a Black Brother"
First, the two aren't necessarily related. One can be a very full and true adept, having the Knowledge of the Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel as a 5=6, and still balk at the Abyss as a 7=4.
"[to me I mean some one who follows the Draconian current and instead of becomeing one with the universe becomes a seprate force in the unvirse while still linked with it of course]"
That's not the definition. You're using terms that have specific meanings and then applying other meaning sto them.
"It seems in Thelema, any one who becomes a Black Brother of the Left Hand Path is not looked upon so nicely and I speak on behalf of a couple adepts being K Grant,Sor Nema and now Frater Achad."
A Black Brother is an Adept who, through fear or other restriction (and, in practice, surely accomplished by a deficit in the ability to love) turns back from the Ordeal of the Abyss and continues to act as if his or her ego is the highest definition of authority within his or her psyche.
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@SetiDraconis said
"So the name of the book is "John St. John"?"
You can read "John St. John" here: www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib816.htm
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What is the difference between this "evil genius" and Babalon/Nuit. As this represents the other just as Beast/Hadit represents the Self.
Is not the Law of Thelema meant to be the seeking after the other, the total sacrifice of what one IS to that which one IS NOT. Which is the pouring of ones blood into the cup of Babalon?
I find that it is the mistake of the Black Brother, to worship what he IS rather that to give himself in Sacrifice to what he IS NOT.
Thus, the adept is always expanding, the lime between what he IS and what he IS NOT always pushed back as what he IS encompasses some aspect of what he Was-Not. The lawful expansion of ones being is a relation of Love, rather than one of fear and desire to control. The accepting of the unfamiliar, the love of the new and other, as the divine fool who nonchalantly wanders into the world with joy in his heart, blissfully unconcerned with potential danger.
Is this fool not the archetype of the Ipssissimus?
Is not the Magister charged with transcending the sorrow that comes with identifying oneself in dualistic opposition to the other. Above the abyss Self and Other do not contradict, they complement. "The perfect and the perfect are not 2 but 1, neigh they are none".
Is not the magus charged with conquering change, The more things change, the more they stay the same, the Koan of the magus. This master of change his word even the GODS obey, the world obeys and changes at his command, so thinks the Magus, but no sooner that he says it, the people take his words as their own, and twist his intent to their own intent. They co about their business as always. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... I get on my guitar and play, just like yesterday."
All this talk of great power and attainment, its all nothing but a trap and a test. The real adept is the one who sees the folly that marks each grade, in its turn.
In the end all the Gods, all the symbols, all the rewards, oaths, initiations, the song and dance, nothing more than obstacles to be conquered, such as those that befell odysseys on his way home from Troy. Offered, power, riches, women, wine, song, drugs, even the glory of Battle, each an attempt to interfere with his destiny, TRUE WILL.
But magick is also a means to an ends, for if you can overcome the obstacles in the Ritual circle, then you can use those discoveries and skills in your life as well. Thus magick is an initiation, its a training for the ones true quest. Life itself in the real world, beyond the poetry, regalia, the deities and supernatural pawns, conjured up in the imagination of the role playing game called hermetic ritual.
We must realize the purpose of magick is not for magick sake, its not to get us trapped in a poetic world of sorcery partially of our own making. But to be used as a tool in the real world of solid tangible things, the world of income taxes, foreign invaders, mortgages, shopping for a new suit, etc.
The black brother basically needs to pull his head out of his ass and stop trying to attain imaginary power in a world of fiction.
A great World of Warcraft master who can't wipe his own ass, is no kind of master at all.
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Thank you for your responses...how ever I still feel like im still left with some unanswered qustions...I belive part of my true will to be of the Draconian Typhonian/Sethian Current in this Universe..I hate to use tidals to discribe this force but it is a real force that I feel that I am of and its my calling and has been from a young age..some thing that is much deeper than just "ideas"..something much greater.
I am probeing Thelema studying watching learning to see if this will infact truly help me with persueing my true will or lead me away from it.
Ive been active in Thelemic circles from coast to coast serching for some asnwers.
SetiDraconis
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@Froclown said
"What is the difference between this "evil genius" and Babalon/Nuit."
Unrelated. (That's a big difference, right?)
Again, I recommend you study this in, say, Crowley's commentaries on Liber LXV. I haven't the time to search it all out right now, but you'll find that you aren't talking about the same thing.
You're also approaching this at the wrong level. The choice regarding the Evil Genius is something encountered by the proto-Adept in approaching the full 5=6.
"All this talk of great power and attainment, its all nothing but a trap and a test. The real adept is the one who sees the folly that marks each grade, in its turn. "
I agree to some extent - except, it's a mistake to do this before that grade has been fulfilled. Otherwise, you're skipping, which is restriction.
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@SetiDraconis said
"Thank you for your responses...how ever I still feel like im still left with some unanswered qustions...I belive part of my true will to be of the Draconian Typhonian/Sethian Current in this Universe..I hate to use tidals to discribe this force but it is a real force that I feel that I am of and its my calling and has been from a young age..some thing that is much deeper than just "ideas"..something much greater."
OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?
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OK, it seems I had this indexed and hadn't remembered. Here are some remarks on the subject from Crowley, from his commentary on Liber LXV:
@Liber LXV 4:34 said
"Spirit may therefore be manifested either as the Holy Guardian Angel or as the Evil Persona, the Dweller on the Threshold... The doctrine is also frequently found in folklore, where man is represented as attended by both a good and an evil genius. The horror of the latter is intensified by his function as the alternative to the Holy Guardian Angel. No other evil intelligence can compare with this either as subjectively terrible and loathsome or as objectively hostile. For the evil is no less a possibility of Attainment than the Holy Guardian Angel.
...Entirely different [than an example given concerning the Exempt Adept] is the case of the Dominus Liminis whose operation, if unsuccessful, may be a simple failure perhaps due to no serious error of his own. Apart from slight discouragement he should be able to try again without disadvantage. Indeed he should have used his failure as a means of instruction. [An admonishment against fear is repeated, then...] Once more the fascination of evil may be no less perilous than the fear. In any case he may expect to be confronted first of all by his Evil Genius He may fail to abide the onslaught. He may be thrust back from the threshold, and his defeat may be more or less damaging according to circumstances. But his fear may be so great as to induce him to transform it into fascination, or his exhaustion so complete that he is prepared to purchase rest at any price. In either case the result may be that he accepts his Evil Persona as his Guardian Angel.
I should be loath to assert that even so fearful a form of failure is necessarily fatal and final, although evidently it must always create a disastrous karma - as involving the assertion (fortified by the most solemn oaths and sealed by the most intense ecstasy) of the absolute existence of evil (in a sense of the word actually ad hoc defined by himself) - i.e., he has acquiesced in duality, established an interior conflict in himself, and ceremonially blasphemed and denied the unity of his own True will. Appalling as is such a catastrophe, it lacks the element of finality since the principles involved do not extend above Tiphereth. He has become a Black Magician, no doubt, but this is far indeed from being a Black Brother. It cannot even be said that such an one thereby manifests any tendency to become a Black Brother when the time is ripe; for his union even with the personification of Evil is also an act of love under will, though that will be false and vitiated by every conceivable defect and error. [There is more, which I recommend you look up and read if finding yourself in this situation... but I'm excerpting only. - JAE]"
See also the commentary on 4:37 where the HGA triumphs over the illusory Evil Genius.
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hmm, I never really encountered any sort of unified Evil genius, seemed more like a whole "SET" of illusions and potential false personas, like masks and roles that attempted to make themselves manifest, by taking control over my mind. All seething and fighting the EGO for their chance at the wheel.
Ultimately it was the eternal Solar power of Horus that stepped forth to conquer the Shadows of SETH, and ruled in the place of the Ego (Osiris) who dies and is reborn. From the dark night of the Soul, into the Golden Dawn, as it were.
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Froclown...with your last words only proves my point that aspects of Thelema are Anti Seth Anti Draconian..hence the rejection of any of the Adepts with roots in Thelema such as Grant Sor Nema and others.
It seems to me that there seems to be a Anti Left Hand Path in or with members of Thelema or Thelema its self...which doesnt make since because what if part of my will is of the essance of Set??
This has been my whole issue that im trying to figure out with Thelema why is there all most nothing about Set/Tyhpon and so much basis on Horus Osiris.
Why does every thing have to be white light and fluffy....why is there a abseince of the Darker Currents?
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"OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?"
No I am not Anti HGA but I was woundering why if both these are aspects of ones being why must ones Evil Genius be the "Wrong" Way?
I am know adept but I know from my very real "Occult" Experances that there is more than one way to a divine sorce and it doesnt have to be the 'Right Hand Path" white light way!
To each there own in the end.
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@SetiDraconis said
"It seems to me that there seems to be a Anti Left Hand Path in or with members of Thelema or Thelema its self...which doesnt make since because what if part of my will is of the essance of Set??"
There is no anti-Set regimen in Thelema. Ultimately, Set is the same as Horus (two faces of the same coin). But this also has nothing to do with the Evil Genius! It sounds more to me like you are saying that (it is your intuition that) the Set archetype has some strong relationship to your own Holy Guardian Angel. In that case, it's quite the opposite of the Evil Genius!
"This has been my whole issue that im trying to figure out with Thelema why is there all most nothing about Set/Tyhpon and so much basis on Horus Osiris."
It's simply not a primaryarchetype of the system, so it gets relatively little mention. OTOH, some of Crowley's earliest Qabalistic analysis of Liber L. dealt with certain ligatures that are equivalent to the letters Shin Teth or (in Greek) Sigma Theta. You should also explore the other Holy Books (Class A Documents of A.'.A.'.), especially Liber LXV, Liber A'ash, and others, for mention of the Set, Typhon, and Apophis archetypes.
Thelemites can pursue any number of archetypal - worship any gods at all. Don't worry about whether anybody is leading the way on your idea of God. Just find it and pursue it.
"Why does every thing have to be white light and fluffy....why is there a abseince of the Darker Currents?"
You haven't read The Book of the Law lately, have you! It's hardly "all white and fluffy."
Then again... what do you mean by "the Darker Currents"?
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@SetiDraconis said
"
"OK. Cool. But what's that have to do with the Evil Genius or Anti-HGA?"No I am not Anti HGA but I was woundering why if both these are aspects of ones being why must ones Evil Genius be the "Wrong" Way?"
No, I wasn't saying that you are anti-HGA. I was clarifying the definition. The Evil Genius IS the Anti-HGA. It's the "Wrong Way" by definition because the term "Evil Genius" is only applied to that which is the wrong way for you.
"I am know adept but I know from my very real "Occult" Experances that there is more than one way to a divine sorce and it doesnt have to be the 'Right Hand Path" white light way!
To each there own in the end."
I agree completely. I'm only clarifying terminology. We can't communicate without a common language. Since you are using terms that already have a specific meaning, it is important that you know what the words mean.
Screw the left vs. right terms - they mean something different on opposite sides of the globe anyway. If what you are describing is truly the right way for you then it is rooted in your HGA, not in your "Evil Genius."
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Jim yes sorry that last statement about White light fluff was a little out of anger I have read the Book of the Law and by far is any thing fluffy.
Infact to be very honest I find about half Thelemanites to have some typs of a Darker Current in them[hate to use tidals] I feel it when im at any OTO or TOT meeting I can all most pick them out by feeling them.
I will look into some of Crowleys earlyer work you are talkling about..im more than sure there is more im missing that I dont know about.
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ok, if you want to pursue shadows, diffuse your mind in a thousand directions, be hounded into dark corners by paranoia, confusion, and gnash your teeth as the bible says, then I am not going to stop you. I just assume that most people seek clarity and peace of mind.
Certainly we must accept that these shadows exist, and each has its proper role place, but to give oneself over to them seems a fatal mistake. These are the Goetia, the howling spirits, rather than allow then to tear ones mind this way and that, under the anarchy of SET. It seems wise to empower oneself under the rule of HORUS, who redeems each of these from his poverty, brings order and civilization to the howling masses, where each is governed and granted its proper place in the Sun. The seething madness, transformed into a well orchestrated celestial choir.
Horus conquers Set. Horus represents civilization and Set the untamed wilderness.
Set is actually given a great deal of import in the Thelemic System, when he takes the form of PAN, The Night of PAN being the battle of Horus with Set. Choronzon also a Thelemic/enochian manifestation of SET.
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@Froclown said
"Choronzon also a Thelemic/enochian manifestation of SET."
Uh, no! Set is a specific symbol of the Holy Guardian Angel in the A.'.A.'. training system (see, for example, Liber XXXVI).
Set is an alter ego of Horus.
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I can see that you side with the villian, the out cast seeking attention, power, revenge, withdraw, or worse annihilation of all.
If you study Adler you will se that this is caused by inferiority feelings, and discouragement from others.
Of course, the hero of good guy, to me is just the enabler of the villain. I do not seek to live as a goodness and light Christian type nor do I seek to be a brooding doer of mischievous deeds, or seeker of the dark forbidden powers.
These are two sides of the Ego coin, and no matter if your ego is personified with a dark cloak and a concealed dagger, or is a saffron robe bearing peace and good cheer, its still the Ego, and the ego can wear many masks.
The mask of Horus or of Set, even the mask of an adept.
The little lies and stories we tell ourselves for reassurance, only reassure the EGO.
Be it lies about Horus or Set.
Really the TRUE SELF does not know itself, I am the Knower, not what is known.
If you thing identifying with Set will accomplish something go a head, but the SELF locked behind the godform persona is not SET, it can play any role, for it is the shape shifter who never had a face.
Rather than force roles to hide your shame at being faceless, it might be wise to address the issue directly.
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Froclown says be hounded into dark corners by paranoia, confusion, and gnash your teeth as the bible says.
I think you are confuseing me with some type of Anton Lavey follower Satanist.
I assure you my roots are in a much older Draconian Tradtion other than some chezzy Church of Satan stuff.
To say that Set the untamed wilderness is foolish,the wilderness is a aspect of Set/Pan yes but keep in mind that the Cosmic force is also Saturn/Typhon/Shaitan and other names as well that play a much more of a Intellagent force umong other things in the universe.
So my freind we are obviosly on the diffrant spectrum of practice and such so of course you are going to follow your will as I will follow mine but you just sound like another white lighter saying the all powerfull Horus is the only way etc
There is more to the universe instead of a white light order or what not.
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Jim your words again are help full in regards to what you said..... [Uh, no! Set is a specific symbol of the Holy Guardian Angel in the A.'.A.'. training system (see, for example, Liber XXXVI)
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Froclown wrote.....I can see that you side with the villian, the out cast seeking attention, power, revenge, withdraw, or worse annihilation of all.
If this is all you think Set reprasents you need to do some more work on the matter before you speak of it...one of Set's great roles is he is the Intiater[Hence also Saturn] along with other things.
I am not some troubled youth thinking I do 'Black Magick" to harm people or for Low Magick reslults for earthly gains.
My pursute is one based on High Magick and Higher consciousness and undersranding myself my "Will".
So to think I am some troubled individual wanting attion and power you could not be more wrong with your assumtion.
And one more thing saying I seek the annihilation of all what purpsoe does that serve?...how does that advance mankind...are you thinking im so evil that I would distroy myself hahahaha....survial is a deeply rooted thing in mankind..makes no since!
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I was speaking of a Black brother in general and by definition.
Set = dark shadows, out cast vagabond, the barren chaos of the desert, the denial of rational control, civilized order.
He represents the untamed passions, the visceral reflex reactions, the unexamined life.
If you have some other attributes to Set than these, then I suppose your Set and mine are not the same.
I can only suppose thot following the path of set will only get your the same Results as Abdul Alhazred, which is to say torn limb from limb in the market place by invisible wolves (undirected inner forces, spirits, passions, obsessions, fears, etc).
That is not something I feel like having to deal with, (again)