"We have nothing with the outcast"
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@frateruranus said
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"Ressurecting an old thread, deal with it.
I think a better way to look at this verse is more look at the A.'.A.'. & the ordeals that take an initiate out.
Uranus"
To get back to the original question, I have at time wondered if a fraternal order should have the right to ask that potential members seek counselling before full membership, if the need is seen ahead of time. Some Pagan groups do this when the HPS or other elders feel it would help the group. Actually some Wiccan groups ask this for every candidate, I think that is usually unnecessary but in some cases it might save the other members alot of drama and grief in the future. I'm undecided about this practise, just throwing it out as an idea.
I do feel though, that the quote refers to internal ordeals rather than social or political struggles. Persephone -
It is not exactly lying so much as providing other different sort of experiences for those we are trying to recruit as public mouth pieces and wranglers. The external order is meant to be a mask a sort of popular social club that the common will not feel embarrassed or ashamed to join, it is from this common stock that the inner order selects and cultivates an brings through ordeals, such the the inner order is secret and if expressed openly would ruffle the fur of the general public, but is accepted by the chosen few who are selected by merit and taught the secrets.
But, to get the common stock from which it breed a higher sort, we need to draw them in. It is what scientology does, do you really think they pu Tom Cruise through the same program as the average member. Of course part of Scientology is that they give you a personality test and have a specifically designed program that plays on ones perceived weaknesses and inhibitions as indicated by the test. Also ones social class and income level will be calculated into the program, personally designed to some extent to the individual. (though scientology is mostly brain washing and conditioned loyalty) Still the point than they use the method of science to design a program specific to the individual and also to promote the orders own ends, seems in line with Crowley's True WILL notion.
I would think Thelema in general would be using profiling psychological, socio-economic and racial to design a complex system of grades, that transfer people into different sub-orders based on the nature of their TRUE WILL, thus making the order a sort of system to sort out natural Caste or a guild assessment system. Where the nature of each individual would be cultivated and supported by the particular branch of the order which is assigned to than particular type of person.
For example at the Yesod grade those with proclivity for logic and abstraction would be initiated into the order that deals with logical sciences and engineering etc, where as those with more of an emotional and organic disposition would be initiated into the Netzatch arts and religion, those who stop at Malkuth may be natural farmers, those who stop at hod, Logicians, an Gevurah, warriors. Not that we have to strictly use the tree of life, but it seems a decent sort of 10 caste system than provides also the proper and balanced relationship between caste, to prevent and one caste from one sided domination.
At least that is my idea of an order than truly reflects Crowley's Far Right political views. Maximizing both the personal liberty and ideal self expression of the individual (as part of his or her natural sphere be it racial, ethnic, cultural, economic, common ideals or common caste) while at the same time creating a balance of power between individuals that maximized social benefit and liberty as a member of a society that transcends differences by finding a means for each to express itself in a means beneficial to the whole.
Much like the notion than rather than chastise, banish and bind demons, it is better to understand the True Nature of each one, and not constrain it to do something un-natural to it, but rather work to find a beneficial means by which that demon can express itself that aids rather than hinders your true WILL. For the repress, ignore, bind, or constrain to improper expression, a demon (bad habit) is ultimately against your True WILL, as this builds up stress and expresses itself in neurotic ways, anxiety, depression, irrational fears, and fetishes, can lead to psychosis and bizaar behaviors. The same is TRUE of individuals in society whose TRUE nature either by not being known (not tested for or cultivated) or by direct moral repression, is either ignored, chastised, repressed, or constrained to an expression or occupation inappropriate to it. When this happens, the pressures build and we have strikes, protests, passive aggressive sabotages, criminal activity, and large scale revolts. We see as modern values corrupted the noble class, and they no longer understood how to lead in a way befitting of the TRUE nature of their subjects, over time dissatisfaction grew as the noble class degenerated, until revolution broke out, first in Russia the France, and America.
These revolutions were the broken back of the proverbial camel, the bloom of Christs superstitions his reversal of natural values was completed. But its fruit was yet to come, The death of God is the final stage under Christ's law. Yet the Death of GOD and the Birth of Horus are the same event. The revaluation of values in the face of the destruction of the old social order, such that the True nature of each individual in cultivated and put to proper use, without dissatisfaction that leads to fear, depression neurosis, crime, and revolt. The Osiris cycle of revolution (Come meet the new boss, same as the old boss) is to be put to an end. An SET being the anti-life dissatisfaction with the world and the subsequent escapism to worlds of fantasy and afterlives, Set being that with which the Christian in his dissatisfaction with life wants salvation from, is to be Conquered by Horus. That is the new Formula bf assessing and supporting the fulfillment of the specific nature of each human being, destroys the dark shadows of dissatisfaction. Thus "SIN" is no more a plague in mankind who no longer feels a need to seek Salvation.
This is what Thelema means to me, and the sort of political-social structure that is required to bring it about
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Heinlein - Specialization is for Insects
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
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"Today all this is absolutely changed. Every important branch of work is so specialized that a man must give his whole life to his particular job for 40 years or more before he is capable of holding his own in it. Such a man must obviously be chosen from the start on the ground of inclination and capacity. He must be allowed ample leisure. He must be secured freedom from all worries and anxiety, or he will never arrive at competence. A university education is not nearly enough. It is only a general ground-work. When a man leaves a university he wants at least 10 years uninterrupted work in his particular line before he even begins to succeed in it. In other words, the complexity of civilization demands an elaborate caste system." (Crowley)
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@Frowclown said
"might not this declaration of the law mean that we are to have nothing with out castes, Literally. "
When you add that e to "outcasts," you're manipulating the text to fit your pet topic. "Change not as much as the style of a letter..."
It's also inappropriate to use the modifier "Literally" once you've altered the original text (Definition of Literal)
So, no, I think it defies the definition of "literal" as well as literally defying an injunction within the BOL itself.
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I might mention that "caste" comes from the same root as "castration." It means to cut off.
We shouldn't be inherently cut off from anything. Although everyone has their own differentiation to develop and enjoy, our method of teaching is to balance all aspects of being so that people have equal access to all things - and then, from that place, can freely move in their own way.
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@Froclown said
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... It is what scientology does, do you really think they pu Tom Cruise through the same program as the average member. Of course part of Scientology is that they give you a personality test ... Still the point than they use the method of science to design a program specific to the individual and also to promote the orders own ends, seems in line with Crowley's True WILL notion.
"To see this idea expressed on this board leaves me speechless. Persephone
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I might mention that "caste" comes from the same root as "castration." It means to cut off.
We shouldn't be inherently cut off from anything. Although everyone has their own differentiation to develop and enjoy, our method of teaching is to balance all aspects of being so that people have equal access to all things - and then, from that place, can freely move in their own way."
well put.
"Achieve thou every possibility!" - The Heart of the Master
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To me, the 'outcast and the unfit' refer to associating with people who interfere with you doing your True Will. "Psychic vampires" or other folks who suck up your time and energy. The 'outcast and unfit' could also be seen as people who are so enslaved to society's standards that they label others as 'outcast and unfit'.
To Aum418:
I don't think that all magicians have to be socially skilled. Personally speaking, I'll never 'fit in' socially because I have a certain disability.My spiritual path includes accepting - after struggling to fit in - that this is part of my True Will. Many other people have other conditions that preclude even having a job. The law is for ALL, including people with disabilities.
Just my $0.02
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"Hear me, ye people of sighing!
The sorrows of pain and regret
Are left to the dead and the dying,
The folk that not know me as yet."For me, the key is here. Who are the outcast and the unfit? Who are those who "sorroweth"? Who "feels not"? Who is the "wretched & the weak"?
They are "the folk that not know me as yet."
Another master also referred to them as "the dead."
"Matthew 8:21-22
Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
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Ideally once the system as a whole is set up, those within the order would not be outcast because each would be from an early age assessed and cultivated into the appropriet caste where their TRUE WILL is supported, directed, cultivated, the supplies they need economically provided for etc.
At this point the outcast would only be those who as yet are not members of the order, or those who directly and openly defy the order in some way, but even then it is the task of the higher initiates to find a way to prevent ANYONE so ever from being dissatisfied with their place in the order, these revolts would be indicators of DIS-EASE which would be immediately taken care of to prevent such mis-fits from arising in the future and the collected data on the one who fell through the cracks used in reform the system as a whole to include a means to bring such a stray sheep back to the flock.
(To be outcast means to be without a Caste, the Caste meaning a social role and a life purpose to fulfill as part of a collective society. If the society outcast's you, that means you are stripped of all social role, rank, rights and identity, to wander the wilderness alone as a no body, treated like a stay beast, no one trusts you, supports you or even acknowledges you as a fellow human, let alone friend, citizen or sibling in an order. This is admitingly extreme outcasting, but this is what happened in say the old west when one was tied to a horse and sent into the dessert, or in the middle ages when the King totally refused to support a criminal, and decreed against it, or when God turned his face against someone. etc)
But yes ideally all those born into the brotherhood of the order will be accepted and designed as well as cultivated into a particular caste or social role, and the only few will be outcast, the unfit being those of the "troglodytes" outside the order whom by disadvantage of not having been raised in Thelema may not be fit at this point in their lives for it. The point is to not waste time with them, and concentrate on the Fit, the youth and those whose personal development suits them to Thelema, From this healthy stock to breed the foundations of the Order. Which over time is to grow in influence and replace the social institutions outside the order, and thus fit all within its ever growing bounds, to their own natural WILL that is to provide a supportive caste system for all the types of people we may happen to arise. Thus developing the everyone with their true WILL rather than against it,
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The whole caste system idea sounds like another form of platonic idealism. It sounds like someone longing for an absolute order in the chaotic universe. I think idealism itself is a great vice. I'm pretty sure that in practice it would lead to something that most people would ultimately not like even though the theory might sound good.
I agree that by the outcast and unfit, he clearly meant psychic vampires.
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look people are material 100% physical and like all other physical things no two are exactly in every instance identical, yet we can discern general categories of things. We know than not all tigers are exactly the same and not all rabbits are exactly the same, yet if you are going to approach an animal it is wise to know tigers from rabbits. If you are a zoo keeper you need to know what your animal is, what its habits are and it's nutritional needs. Thus you feed grass to rabbits and you feed raw meat to tigers. You provide open grass lands for rabbits and include thickets and trees for tigers, you discern what diseases and medicines affect each animal differently.
There is no reason we should not do the same for humans, as we are not all the same. Biological race does have an effect on diet, proneness to disease, and what medicines work, as well as psychological temperament, and the sociological roles and condition than satisfy the nature of the person. Race is very general, as even with in a race their is variation, the social class and the family traditions, the way the child was raised, the religious beliefs etc, from most general down to events than effect only the one specific individual, which is to say the specific way in which that one individual was treated in a specific case.
Now their is not a whole lot we can do to predict or deal with extreme cases of individual variation, even in the zoo it happens than a particular animals behavior may be uncharacteristic of its kind. An ape raised in captivity and taught sign language or exposed to psycho-active drugs may behave strangely and not integrate well with other apes, or may reject natural habitats in favor of it's cage in the lab. Which is much like how those raised under Osiris institutions are not equipped to deal well with Thelemic systems, and the thelemic system is not designed to deal with every extreme variation caused by Osiris influences. Over time the system will gain experience and data necessary to understand what influences a wider range of deviation and how to raise children to prevent destructive deviants and also how to incorporate a wider range of behaviors and castes into the social system as a whole.
But by having nothing with the outcast and unfit, it means those too steeped in old aeon ways, may be outside the ability of the Thelemic system to incorporate them, at least while it is still young.
In fact the Thelemic order is best set up for the children, a system that becomes more effective each generation. While now recruits can only be expected to attain partial benefits, not having been raised within, and cultivated into ones caste.For a new recruit the TRUE WILL or casted role will fit tight in places and loose in others, as the WILL is not been perfectly attuned since birth and thus our self image and conditioned behavior are not in perfect harmony with the WILL, society has banged us into the shape it wants. Thelema seeks to help us grow into our natural mold. But once a wheel is beaten out of shape, you can smooth it out, but not back perfectly back into shape, A Bonzai tree will return to its natural form, once the binding are removed, but the damage is already done and the artificial shape will not fully vanish.
Our society wants to make everyone into the same mold, the liberal humanist, Christian slave moral, little consumer/citizen, zombie. It is Thelema that realizes their is more than one kind of human, and than each human must be supported with the right kind of, nutrition, education, social support, work and leisure, and basically have an entire life plan designed around the individual in question, in order to produce the highest possible manifestation of that individuals potential, and create individuals of highest possible potency in express their WILL to POWER in whatever way is natural to them, without restrictions of moral codes and laws, beyond what of immediate pragmatic value to the individual in relation to social order.
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I am sooooo glad you are not in a position of power. Wow.
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like it or not, man is already controlled by external influences. Some are haphazard; some are arranged by careless or evil men whose goals are selfish instead of humanitarian. The problem, then, is to design a culture that can, theoretically, survive; to decide how men must behave to ensure its survival in reality; and to plan environmental influences that will guarantee the desired behavior. Thus, in the Skinnerian world, man will refrain from polluting, from overpopulating, from rioting, and from making war, not because he knows that the results will be disastrous, but because he has been conditioned to want what serves group interests.
Is such a world really possible? Skinner believes that it is; he is certain that human behavior can be predicted and shaped exactly as if it were a chemical reaction. The way to do it, he thinks, is through "behavioral technology," a developing science of control that aims to change the environment rather than people, that seeks to alter actions rather than feelings, and that shifts the customary psychological emphasis on the world inside men to the world outside them. Central to Skinner's approach is a method of conditioning that has been used with uniform success on laboratory animals: giving rewards to mold the subject to the experimenter's will. According to Skinner and his followers, the same technique can be made to work equally well with human beings.
Underlying the method is the Skinnerian conviction that behavior is determined not from within but from without. "Unable to understand how or why the person we see behaves as he does, we attribute his behavior to a person inside," Skinner explains. Mistakenly, we believe that man "initiates, originates and creates, and in doing so he remains, as he was for the Greeks, divine. We say that he is autonomous." But Skinner insists that autonomy is a myth, and that belief in an "inner man" is a superstition that originated, like belief in God, in man's inability to understand his world. With the rise of behavioral science, understanding has grown, and man no longer needs such fictions as "something going on inside the individual, states of mind, feelings, purposes, expectancies and all of that." The fact is, Skinner insists, that actions are determined by the environment; behavior "is shaped and maintained by its consequences." (www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909994-2,00.html)
This is not totally accurate as biology shows that people do have innate temperaments and inclinations hard-wired into their brain, and that early imprints once set are hard to condition away, also that genetic variation sets up certain individual to be more subject to one imprint over another, also they physical features of the individual like if one is more intelligent or more physical/muscular are genetic and it would be wise to shape a situation where the imprinted and conditioned behaviors match the biology of the individual. Simply put, if the biology and imprinted desires are in harmony the organism experiences fewer failures and less general frustration leading to less stress and less tendency to anxiety, neurotic habits, fetishes, tendency towards antagonism with the social relationships, suicidal attempts, criminal behaviors, guilt, fear, greed, eating disorders.
In fact "Do what thou wilt' Basically means match your biology with your desires, and find a means of expressing them which produces the least social friction. And a Thelemic system thus would key in on conditioning and imprinting behaviors that match ones innate elements, genetics biology, natural climate, and also in shaping the social system, its values, institutions and available social roles to fit the behaviors and biology of it's members.
That is all very scientific and ensures the best possible developmental conditions are devised to suit the biology of every individual, or at least strives to do so for most individuals and as a science constantly improves itself to work for a wider range of differences. Probably working to weed out problems that lead to innate dissatisfaction with life, like children born with diabetes, cancers, downs syndrome, and missing limbs. By medical means, or possibly advised breeding. It would be unthelemic to forbid or restrict breeding, but advising a couple on the potential damage their genetic combinations can produce allows them to make informed choices.
It is not forbidden for a chemist to mix any chemical with any other as he may WILL, but it is beneficial to know something about chemistry the nature of the chemicals your mixing and the potential results of mixing them. It is ill advised to mix random chemicals hoping for a good result. And it would be careless of society to allow just any layman to mix up chemicals that may produce nerve toxins or explosions. The dangers in uninformed chemistry can be quite small compared to the unmitigated expression of sexual formula.
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Wow, the last place I'd have expected to see people pushing Skinnerian social engineering programs is on a Thelemic forum in 2009.
"This is not totally accurate as biology shows that people do have innate temperaments and inclinations hard-wired into their brain..."
"Not totally accurate" is mild. It is, in fact, totally inaccurate. The whole point of Skinnerian behaviorism is that the mind is a black box in which nothing happens worth talking about, except conditioning. You would think it would be obvious to anyone participating in this particular community how hopelessly and profoundly false that is. It is also a scientific model a century old and is about as relevant as geocentrism.
Anyway, people do not have "innate temperaments and inclinations hard-wired into their brain". What they have is a modular computational architecture that consists of thousands of semi-intelligent, semi-autonomous subsystems dedicated to the solution of particular problems in the ancestral paleolithic environment that shaped the evolution of the brain. The idiosyncrasies of human personality arise as a result of a complex feedback loop between this evolved architecture, its developmental trajectory, and the environment in which it is embedded.
Since the computational architecture of the brain originates in the paleolithic, the only way you could possibly "match your biology with your desires" is by regressing human culture to a prehistoric paleolithic hunter-gatherer environment. This is putting the cart before the horse. We want to adapt the tools we've got to the environment; not adapt the environment to our tools. The game is transcendence, not paralysis.
As far as your idea of society telling us what our true will is, this is a stunningly nightmarish idea. The whole point of individuation/attainment/enlightenment is to produce a mind that can move outside the collective reality tunnels and see them from without. Without such minds, the collective has no check on it whatsoever.
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"The whole point of individuation/attainment/enlightenment is to produce a mind that can move outside the collective reality tunnels and see them from without. Without such minds, the collective has no check on it whatsoever."
Yes.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333