Unexpected LBRP results ...
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Just to add a few more comments: Some of the British (not only them) magickal fraternities recommend or require some sort of therapy along with basic magickal training. Dion Fortune, Gareth Knight, and Israel Regardie have all written about that. However, what they considered therapy varied widely from, psychoanalysis, geatalt therapy, even dianetics.
I can recommend a good book called "Feeling Good" by David Burns. You can work the exercises and get results like a lot of people. Cogitive Behavioural Therapy is designed to get to the false assumptions that many of us carry around with us (because we have been conditioned that way.) Magickal trainging, while helpful on its own is no substitute for dealing with false logic (the source of ones bad feelings).
Crowley and Fortune empasis dealing with things on the their proper plane and not confusing the planes, so don't neglect plain old self-analysis. Crowley was very familiar with the modern philosophers, and CBT is derived from those ideas.
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@Uni_Verse said
"Of course, this might just be an ordeal of my own. I am the kind of person who will suffer through much abuse in order to protect the feelings of another - even a total stranger."
Well, I would hesitate to give advice to a fellow Thelemite who has the tools to undo their own complexes but I have seen this very pattern time and time again in society. Indeed it's very close to my own personal situation - it' a kind of "yes man" or "nice guy" archetype and to me reminiscent of the Osirian Aeon, in that there's a tendency to sacrifice the self for the supposed "greater good".
Personally, I see how my childhood "programming" resulted in this kind of complex and it lead me to issues with self-expression. The anger outbursts were directed towards those people in my life who had established a kind of "master-slave" relationship with me based on that particular complex, even though they were not at fault for it's origins so to speak....I try to remove any blame from the picture, for it is I that allowed it to take root in the first place, even if I was only mere toddler.
In terms of depth psychology, several psychologists have proposed that the king archetype has two shadow aspects...those being the "weakling prince" and the "tyrant". To me, these shadow aspects contain one another, in that an outward tyrant contains a weakling prince internally and the outward weakling prince contains an "inner tyrant". They are what they are because they rely on one another as opposite poles of outward behavior vs inner feeling. The work for me has been to establish a relationship with both of these shadow aspects, empathize with them and come to understand that they are malformations of the True King, who exudes his inner confidence but does not need to be cruel to do so.
Continual banishing and alchemical work of course draws me a lot closer to being a "wholesome King" and I no longer need to have angry outbursts due to inner feelings of inferiority. People need to respect my point of view....and it's not necessarily about being "right" as it is simply that each individual's point of view must be respected. The King is often "wrong" and that's the role of the court Jester, to point that out. I no longer suffer from "angry outbursts", however I'm quite capable of expressing such if someone is trying to control or manipulate me....sometimes I still fall into those shadows from time to time in more extreme cases...and the work continues!
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Thanks guys for the input. Interesting stuff. Have to look into the various books and techniques. It is also nice to hear that I am not the alone going through this.
I am a big fan of Regardie, Fortune and Knight to a certain extent and I know that therapy is recommended before even moving beyond the first grades of some Orders (most of them I would say). That is a big part of my frustration. Because I already experienced what practice does to an unbalanced microcosm. Which means that I have to give myself the “return to GO card” until this is resolved.
It is my stubbornness that keeps me from getting therapy (and maybe pride). It probably did not get through in my lengthy post but it has become a mission to try to fix this thing as best as I can on my own. The rewards for doing so are enormous. At least up to this point. It feels like a boot camp before beginning more advanced practice. I can relate to the archetypes and behaviour patterns you mentioned to a great extent. Tracing back my life from a psychological standpoint it breaks down to these phases:
Childhood/early adulthood – avoiding confrontation with outbursts of anger in result of not having a balanced way of handling situations.
Adulthood up until 3 years ago – radical shift towards the severity side using anger and sometimes imposing fear to get my way. Not nice at all.
Present time – patience of gold ( or at least bronze) when it comes to personal matters. Avoiding unnecessary confrontation that does not seem to be important (read as not perceived to be in alignment with true Will). Rather a smile and silence in return than saying stuff that might stir up more unwanted chaos. But I still get anger throwbacks due to my ego feeling stomped. These outbursts rarely ever utter physically because they are checked and controlled internally. I detect a slight tendency to avoid confrontation but not as bad as in my youth. What I am saying with this is that the wrongful judgement I place on people is turned inside and the suffering from this is realizing that I am not really stopping something that I KNOW is out of order.
The way I see it. I might have experienced extreme shifts towards both polarities. I am back at an imbalance and the trick seems to be to get a balance which actually incorporates a blend of the two. But this is just speculation that remains to be proven in practice.
Thanks again for the pointers. I will research the possibilities presented to me and get back to work. Hopefully without lusting for results.
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lol ya ur not alone
sometimes with me it seems that i have a tendency to be an emotinal hypochondriac adopting problems that arent realy there while experiencing the extremes from both polarities and sometimes feeling lost in between, but its all good ile in time evolve the two extremes into a unity of not only a lil from both but to from something new that neither have or balance for lack of a better word, i guess metaphorically to create the trinity by both extremes coming together to make anew child, or forcing to ego to find the middle way as regardie said.
also in my own personal experience your problems that you have with people, if any, can follow you in your later relationships with other people and usually are ended up being projected into them, so either way you are forced to deal with it.
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@Apophis said
"Thanks guys for the input. Interesting stuff. Have to look into the various books and techniques. It is also nice to hear that I am not the alone going through this.
I am a big fan of Regardie, Fortune and Knight to a certain extent and I know that therapy is recommended before even moving beyond the first grades of some Orders (most of them I would say). That is a big part of my frustration. Because I already experienced what practice does to an unbalanced microcosm. Which means that I have to give myself the “return to GO card” until this is resolved.
It is my stubbornness that keeps me from getting therapy (and maybe pride)."
Do whatever you think is best: I am only giving you the benefit of my experience.
There shouldn't be such a stigma about getting therapy. I mean, if somebody has high blood pressure, most of us wouldn't say, 'I am trying to fix it on my own", (although I bet a self-motivated patient does speed up the healing process).
I know what you mean about not wanting to put off further magickal training for therapy, but the truth is, is that it (and all events in our lives) are opportunities for magickal development. I think Levi wrote that the first step on the path (Malkuth) is often times the most difficult. To me that means just getting one's life in order to study magick and really devote oneself to the path is possibly the biggest hurdle. It's really about what choices and sacrifices one is willing to make.
Anyway, if you are familiar with those authors, then you already know that the shortest route is the correct route, i.e. taking the time to build a solid foundation, and any short-cuts will only end up taking longer in the end.
One more angle on this: during my time of crisis I made a personal choice to be happy, to choose to be happy now and not let anyone or anything get in my way. Part of the maturation process has been to discover what will make me happy, and now I think that there is only one thing that will lead to that and it is the True Wisdom, Perfect Happiness, the Summum Bonum, and magick is only a means to get there.
Good luck and may the Gods Bless you!
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Very true. I think it is a good thing that you are persistent in pointing this out underabloodredsky. And I am not entirely hesitant against getting on the couch so to speak. Ill have to give this some extra thought.
" I think Levi wrote that the first step on the path (Malkuth) is often times the most difficult. To me that means just getting one's life in order to study magick and really devote oneself to the path is possibly the biggest hurdle. It's really about what choices and sacrifices one is willing to make."
Yes. It is definitely a struggle sorting out distractions. But I have made some radical decisions and the coming months will deal with seeing them through.
Many thanks for your time and advice. -
The star ruby seems to work well as a banishing ritual. Sure, its not the LRBP, but it is definitely more Horus and less Osiris. You might be firmly in the new Aeon and not even realize it. You should try it out and see how it makes you feel.
Your other issues might be not knowing your true will. That could be why you had so many magical screw ups and made yourself miserable. I'm surprised no one here suggested the obvious remedy of going straight to the libre samekh. Get in touch with your HGA. Then you will know what to do. I would caution against a therapist as they are a stigma, can make your existing issues worse, and introduce new issues you never had prior to therapy. -
@Jastiv said
"The star ruby seems to work well as a banishing ritual. Sure, its not the LRBP, but it is definitely more Horus and less Osiris."
How is the LBRP "more Osiris"? (I can't remember any Osiris elements in it.)
"I would caution against a therapist as they are a stigma, can make your existing issues worse, and introduce new issues you never had prior to therapy."
College of Thelema strongly encourages an extended period - at least 6 to 12 months - of weekly psychotherapy.
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Im probably going to play it safe and look into therapy. IF I can find a therapist whose first objective is NOT to recommend/demand I go on medication. Hard for you to know since most of you live in the US or UK but overhere medication often IS the therapy (having heard the stories from people who have made that journey through our rehabilitation system). In other words they tend to want to give you pills for having a bad dream.
But it should not be impossible to find a therapist with a healthy view on psychology. Just really hard.
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Apophis,
I can relate to your reluctance to see a therapist; as I have avoided one all my life. I can say that I've done incredibly well for myself, considering what I've been through.
At the same time, one big aspect of magick is about opening up lines of communication with your subconscious. If your internal communication is not so good, and you've used repression as a daily staple (I know I have!), then the result can include anxiety, depression, and explosive emotion simmering under the surface, waiting for an outlet.
And, at least for me, that dynamic seems to be amplified when I try to access the astral plane. Which really drove home the point that magick was not going to heal me - that I had to begin to heal myself, in order to practice magick seriously.
So, I personally caved at my resistance to therapy recently, and have been looking for a good one for a few weeks. Take your time, do some research, decide what you want to accomplish.
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therapy may be good for some, but me na, cant afford it anyways nor do i want to go through government funding.
i took a little personality disorder test online(most likely innacurate) but it said i had "shcizotypal" low form of schizophrenia, like social isolation, i might idk some points were right on, and i am a full blown aquarius(feb 4th, right in the middle) as my zodiac sign we describe social isolation as "cool and detached" or "eccentric" lol.
but ive been analyzing myself since i was 13 so ran across most possibilities and narrowed it down to "i just dont let things happen, i put up a resistence" combine with my class as a warrior/counselor with a subconsious shield i have since birth, all i need to do is find out the root of "why" fix it and go with it.as for a psychiatrist, ide probly turn the table and analyze him lol!!!, but as long as i stay stubborn and persistent i think ile be ok and probly dont need one.
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I am definitely recommending CBT over other forms of therapy (see the book recommedation I made earlier). There are several reasons I recommend it:
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a proven track record of published, measurable results using various tests such as the Burns Depression Checklist and others.
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the "patient" has the responsibility, and there is much "bibliotherepy", meaning the work is on you not on someone else, which means you take new skills with you for the rest of your life.
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It is a relatively short-term based therapy model which actually seems to work very well compared to psycho-analysis which can takes years of very expensive treatment.
Obviously avoid someone who's only treatment is medication. There is a huge business for this and often times the talk-therapy is minimised. The best long-term results will be gained from talk-therapy, although I think medications are good for certain things, just not exclusive of talk-therapy, as I said.
Lastly, Apophis, as someone who has experienced and come through some difficulties, like many others, there is a reason for everything. It is a fundamental magickal theory that there is a cause for every effect (in the manifested universe). Therefor, I believe there is a reason for our difficulties and great things in the experience of and understanding to be gained by going through these kinds of difficulties. Many mystics have catalogued their difficulties, such as St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" among others.
In any case, from a magickal perspective or not, many people have gone through difficult emotional times and come through it happy and so can you and anyone else who makes up their mind to.
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@Alias55A said
" i am a full blown aquarius(feb 4th, right in the middle) as my zodiac sign we describe social isolation as "cool and detached" or "eccentric" lol."
I am also an aquarius born on feb 4th.
@Jim Eshelman said
"How is the LBRP "more Osiris"? (I can't remember any Osiris elements in it.) "
No, it isn't really Osiris, but it does have an old Aeon feel to it. Old Aeon religion does not feel right to me.
The lesser hexagram is very Osiris though, with the whole Osiris slain and risen thing. The hexagram felt strange because it seemed that the currents were doing opposite things. I've heard someone remark that maybe it is only good for group rituals.
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@Jastiv said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"How is the LBRP "more Osiris"? (I can't remember any Osiris elements in it.) "No, it isn't really Osiris, but it does have an old Aeon feel to it. Old Aeon religion does not feel right to me. "
I'm wondering if yo uare put off by the Hebrew. A lot of people confuse Hebrew with Judeo-Christian religion. If that's the case, you need to get past it: The Hebrew alphabet abnd its formulations are the most important and effective tools we have in magick and the transformation of consciousness.
"The lesser hexagram is very Osiris though, with the whole Osiris slain and risen thing."
Absolutely. Temple of Thelema doesn't use that form. (Ours is hotter and sexier <vbg>.)
I'll be publishing that form in a book nearly finished, because the form we use is confidential; but, at least I'll mention all of this. BTW, the Hexagram Ritual can be done with the Qabalistic Cross instead of the Analysis of the Key-Word (and, in fact, that would be the recommended way if a First Order member had a need to use it, or if a Second Order member used it in a First Order setting).
"The hexagram felt strange because it seemed that the currents were doing opposite things. I've heard someone remark that maybe it is only good for group rituals."
No, also for individual work. But I don't think an accurate form has ever been published. One part of this I can tell you (the most important part): The Macrocosmic arrangement of the elements (Fire in the East, etc.) is not the standard form of this ritual. Even in the GD, it was only to be used within the Vault of the Adepts. Under most circumstances, you should do the Hexagram Ritual with the Air hexagram in the East, Fire in the South, etc. - the same Microcosmic attributions as the Pentagram Ritual. - Several other things, mostly small of no great importance, are also wrong in the published versions, but this should disentangle the screwed up currents feel.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"The lesser hexagram is very Osiris though, with the whole Osiris slain and risen thing."Absolutely. Temple of Thelema doesn't use that form. (Ours is hotter and sexier <vbg>.)
I'll be publishing that form in a book nearly finished, because the form we use is confidential; but, at least I'll mention all of this. BTW, the Hexagram Ritual can be done with the Qabalistic Cross instead of the Analysis of the Key-Word (and, in fact, that would be the recommended way if a First Order member had a need to use it, or if a Second Order member used it in a First Order setting)."
Are these forms of the rituals particular to the Temple of Thelema, or are they taught throughout the Soror Estai lineage?
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Are these forms of the rituals particular to the Temple of Thelema, or are they taught throughout the Soror Estai lineage?"
They are distinctive to the Second Order of Temple of Thelema.
If they were generalized throughout an A.'.A.'. lineage, that would constitute altering the system. We are strictly attentive to not altering the system from what we have received from its founders.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Are these forms of the rituals particular to the Temple of Thelema, or are they taught throughout the Soror Estai lineage?"They are distinctive to the Second Order of Temple of Thelema.
If they were generalized throughout an A.'.A.'. lineage, that would constitute altering the system. We are strictly attentive to not altering the system from what we have received from its founders."
Is this for historical or functional reasons? Many a time you have said that the A.'.A.'. is a 'specific system to deliver a specific set of results'. But if the LBRP is so 'Osirian', how is it the most effective technique to use in such a system?
Perhaps a better way to phrase this question would be: why did Crowley, after being told to 'abrogate all rituals' and begin on a clean slate, keep the INRI/IAO formula in the LBRP?
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@PatchworkSerpen said
"Is this for historical or functional reasons?"
Functional. We have a system that works. Walk in the front door, follow the steps exactly, and walk out the back with the desired result. Therefore, to screw with it at all would be immoral.
"Many a time you have said that the A.'.A.'. is a 'specific system to deliver a specific set of results'. But if the LBRP is so 'Osirian', how is it the most effective technique to use in such a system?"
You do a certain thing, it produces a particular result. That's the main consideration. - (But you're right, it's not the only consideration.)
"Perhaps a better way to phrase this question would be: why did Crowley, after being told to 'abrogate all rituals' and begin on a clean slate, keep the INRI/IAO formula in the LBRP?"
He didn't keep them in the LBRP. (You made that mistake again.) They are only in the Hexagram ritual, not the Pentagram.
But, in any case: Crowley didn't accept Liber Legis in any sense until after Liber E and Liber O were written.
BTW, I do think the INRI/IAO formula remains valid and of enormous importance - but not that INRI/IAO formula. (There are deeper and truer ones.) - Additionally, to most people in the world today, the Osirian formula remains valid. Until they've outgrown their own personal Osirian stage, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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"Perhaps a better way to phrase this question would be: why did Crowley, after being told to 'abrogate all rituals' and begin on a clean slate, keep the INRI/IAO formula in the LBRP?"He didn't keep them in the LBRP. (You made that mistake again.) They are only in the Hexagram ritual, not the Pentagram."
That'll teach me to pay attention!
Then what of the Hexagram ritual?"BTW, I do think the INRI/IAO formula remains valid and of enormous importance - but not that INRI/IAO formula. (There are deeper and truer ones.) - Additionally, to most people in the world today, the Osirian formula remains valid. Until they've outgrown their own personal Osirian stage, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
Kind of like a bridge between the old and new formulas of initiation- is this 'stepping into the New Aeon' one of the natural effects of working the system, or is it karma that must be worked out over many lifetimes?
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It has been six years since this thread was started. Must say that it has been quite a ride since then. My life had slowly started to collapse in on itself a few years earlier but right around the time of this post it definitely hit rock bottom. If I had only known what was to unfold. But doing the work, being consistent and not lusting for results brought me back.
I appreciate your advice, it inspired me to find my own path through the desert.
Today things are brilliant.