Detailed questions on the Klippot
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Thanks for that explanation.
@Jim Eshelman said
"That's a nice legend; but, even if I said a decisive "Yes," would that tell us anything useful? I think not."
I would think so. On the one hand, the traditional definition of the Klippot as husk is that which is evolutionarily no longer useful. On the other hand, if the Klippot are the shards of the shattering of Adam Qadmon, the restorative act of tikkun would suggest that which has been discarded needs to be at least understood. Others suggest the divine light trapped within the husk needs to be released back to the Divine, which sounds like an exorcism. Tikkun would suggest that human evolution is not a going forward in time, leaving behind past events, but rather a gradual return to the primordial event that caused the shattering of Adam Qadmon. Part of this return would suggest an understanding of the Klippot.
I cannot help but wonder whether the adept's encounter with the HGA and subsequent swearing of the demons' allegiance to the HGA does not reflect upon, in some way, this primordial story.
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@he atlas itch said
"Others suggest the divine light trapped within the husk needs to be released back to the Divine, which sounds like an exorcism."
Any of sefveral processes - from unlocking stored muscle memory to psychotherapy to exorcism, and on to much more direct works of High Magick.
Consider the situation of having a lot of emotional (and other psychological) force tracked in an old memory of pain or grief. As long as these are still serving a purpose, they aren't Q'lippothic. Once they no longer of any use, one still has the psychological force locked in them. One needs to dissolve the constraining form to release the force.
The same thing applies on mass-consciousness structures of comparable natures.
Understand that the Q'lippoth are not a Force aspect, but a Form aspect. They are vestigial. All forms (whether physical, psychological, whatever) eventually cease to be useful. At some point one wants to reclaim that of oneself which vivified the form, by releasing it.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The same thing applies on mass-consciousness structures of comparable natures.
Understand that the Q'lippoth are not a Force aspect, but a Form aspect. They are vestigial. All forms (whether physical, psychological, whatever) eventually cease to be useful. At some point one wants to reclaim that of oneself which vivified the form, by releasing it."
The Force vs Form distinction is very helpful, thanks.
That would suggest the old world itself is a Qlippotic form. From putting on a tie and suit daily, working 9-5, paying rent, the absurdity of the economic system - none of it makes sense any more.
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@he atlas itch said
"That would suggest the old world itself is a Qlippotic form. From putting on a tie and suit daily, working 9-5, paying rent, the absurdity of the economic system - none of it makes sense any more."
It may not make sense to you, but it remains highly functional, and the basis of a majority of the human lives on the planet - so it isn't yet a husk. It still has enormous vitality.
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Sepher ha-Zohar places Sitra Achara below Shekinah (Sepher ha-Zohar relates Shekinah to Malkuth). OTOH, it continually refers to Din as Sitra Achara, Din being the 'other side' of Gedulah. Similarly, is is said that Rachamim has its source in Gedulah & Shekinah in Din.
Sepher ha-Zohar relates Gedulah to the first day of creation, but the second day is related to *Din *on account of the faculty of Separation employed by the creator. Separation used in this context is not unlike the Separation phase of the Alchemical Work during which the caput mortem or tartarus is removed. This caput mortem is analogous to the Qliphoth that result from the Shevirat ha-Keilim or shattering of the vessels.
729
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@Arsihsis said
"Sepher ha-Zohar places Sitra Achara below Shekinah (Sepher ha-Zohar relates Shekinah to Malkuth). OTOH, it continually refers to Din as Sitra Achara, Din being the 'other side' of Gedulah. Similarly, is is said that Rachamim has its source in Gedulah & Shekinah in Din."
That gives three possibilities for the Sitra Achara: either 1) somewhere below Malkuth 2) on the Pillar of Severity as the other side of the Pillar of Mercy or 3) on the Klippotic Tree as the other side of the Tree of Life. The first option sounds the most interesting – glimpsed in the awareness that all matter is composed of long deceased forms and our world being built on ruins of older worlds. Perhaps this might explain why matter has traditionally been associated with, or carried the taint of, evil.
@Arsihsis said
"Sepher ha-Zohar relates Gedulah to the first day of creation, but the second day is related to *Din *on account of the faculty of Separation employed by the creator. Separation used in this context is not unlike the Separation phase of the Alchemical Work during which the caput mortem or tartarus is removed. This caput mortem is analogous to the Qliphoth that result from the Shevirat ha-Keilim or shattering of the vessels."
That’s interesting. It suggests the Pillar of Mercy and Pillar of Severity describe the lifecycle of form from different perspectives. Mercy is cohesiveness and unity in which form appears as an aspect of emanation and hardens over time. Severity is judgment in which the hardened form is separated from, and to release, the trapped kernel of energy.
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Yes. But then, the qabalistic interpretations on the qliphoth and the sitra ahra varies from author to author, tradition to tradition.
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In one interpretation, yes. Not in all. In some interpretations the Qliphoth is the most original aspect of God. The Thoughtless Light.
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Yes. I recommend you read Thomas Karlssons book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic for more on this subject. And Johnny Jackbssons article on the Grand Grimoire in Scarlet Imprints book "Diabolical" for more information on how grimoire-magic can be related to the Qliphotic Initiation.
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The Qliphotic Initiation generally acts from the idea that mankind is a being living in a specific remote aspect of reality: malkuth. And that to be able to reach illumination man needs to become initiated in all aspects of reality: all sephiras and qliphas. There can be no shutting out of the darkness from a Left Hand Path perspective.
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This is a question where you will find different perspectives within different traditions. Originally, Kenneth Grant proposed that one should work with the Sephiroth first, reach the HGA and achieve the contact and communication, proceed up to Daath and then do the Qliphothic Initiation guarded by the Sephirothic HGA. He then more and more came to suggest another possibility: the Qliphothic Initiation need not be postponed. It can be done directly through a secret gate that he talks about in Hecates Fountain, which is a book that together with Nightside of Eden most clearly describes his Qliphotic initiatory ideas. He is quite clear about the fact that what he calls "The Dark Angel" needs to be merged with the HGA in such a way that the HGA does not get the "upper hand".
Beside the Typhonian Order, the Dragon Rouge is the order that has worked most with the Qliphoth, and here one of the first major goals is to reach the level of Thagirion where one is to merge with what is called "The Daimon", which is the HGA and the Beast, the Angel and the Shadow, combined into one entity in "dispute" with itself. It is an entity which does not make the qliphotic aspects less wild, but incorporates the qliphotic aspects in their total destructive capacity.
This is a quite different approach than the classical abrameline one, where the darkness is sought to be controlled, conquered and enslaved.
Links to books the books mentioned:
ajnabound.com
www.scarletimprint.com/diabolical.htm -
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@atlantis said
"5) This is a question where you will find different perspectives within different traditions. Originally, Kenneth Grant proposed that one should work with the Sephiroth first, reach the HGA and achieve the contact and communication, proceed up to Daath and then do the Qliphothic Initiation guarded by the Sephirothic HGA. He then more and more came to suggest another possibility: the Qliphothic Initiation need not be postponed. It can be done directly through a secret gate that he talks about in Hecates Fountain, which is a book that together with Nightside of Eden most clearly describes his Qliphotic initiatory ideas. He is quite clear about the fact that what he calls "The Dark Angel" needs to be merged with the HGA in such a way that the HGA does not get the "upper hand".
Beside the Typhonian Order, the Dragon Rouge is the order that has worked most with the Qliphoth, and here one of the first major goals is to reach the level of Thagirion where one is to merge with what is called "The Daimon", which is the HGA and the Beast, the Angel and the Shadow, combined into one entity in "dispute" with itself. It is an entity which does not make the qliphotic aspects less wild, but incorporates the qliphotic aspects in their total destructive capacity. "So do you think one should develop each respective Sephiroth/Qlipha simultaneously? For example one would work with both Yesod and Gamaliel and then work on both Hod and Samael etc, and arrive to the HGA and Daimon at the same time? Or should one first try to attain contact with the "angel" or whatever tree they feel more inclined towards and then take it from there?
I've also been thinking whether working with both the Sephiroth and the Qlipha simultaneously would bring balance or if they would cancel each other out like mixing matter and anti-matter?
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Infernal Seraph: That is the idea of the Dragon Rouge and that idea can also be found in the later works by Kenneth Grant.
The Daimon includes the HGA. The HGA does not include the Daimon.
Working with the Qliphoth and Sephiroth is not some kind of quest to bring balance between them. Balance is related to the Sephiroth. The Qliphothic Initiation is not some kind of project to passify the Sitra Ahra or shut it out - it is about entering it step by step and being illumined by it.
This does not mean that the adept of the Left Hand Path constantly is walking around with open gates to the Sitra Ahra. Mankind is a light being. Initiation is both learning to get out, and learning how to get back. It is a process of acquiring certain keys to open up unknown vistas, and then when getting back making sure to shut those doors so that they do not wreak havoc in the daily life of the magician. That being said: that does not mean that the magician in his ordinary life will not change. She must be guided by that understanding acquired when she opens up those vistas.
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@atlantis said
"1) Yes. But then, the qabalistic interpretations on the qliphoth and the sitra ahra varies from author to author, tradition to tradition.
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In one interpretation, yes. Not in all. In some interpretations the Qliphoth is the most original aspect of God. The Thoughtless Light.
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Yes. I recommend you read Thomas Karlssons book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic for more on this subject. And Johnny Jackbssons article on the Grand Grimoire in Scarlet Imprints book "Diabolical" for more information on how grimoire-magic can be related to the Qliphotic Initiation.
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The Qliphotic Initiation generally acts from the idea that mankind is a being living in a specific remote aspect of reality: malkuth. And that to be able to reach illumination man needs to become initiated in all aspects of reality: all sephiras and qliphas. There can be no shutting out of the darkness from a Left Hand Path perspective.
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This is a question where you will find different perspectives within different traditions. Originally, Kenneth Grant proposed that one should work with the Sephiroth first, reach the HGA and achieve the contact and communication, proceed up to Daath and then do the Qliphothic Initiation guarded by the Sephirothic HGA. He then more and more came to suggest another possibility: the Qliphothic Initiation need not be postponed. It can be done directly through a secret gate that he talks about in Hecates Fountain, which is a book that together with Nightside of Eden most clearly describes his Qliphotic initiatory ideas. He is quite clear about the fact that what he calls "The Dark Angel" needs to be merged with the HGA in such a way that the HGA does not get the "upper hand".
Beside the Typhonian Order, the Dragon Rouge is the order that has worked most with the Qliphoth, and here one of the first major goals is to reach the level of Thagirion where one is to merge with what is called "The Daimon", which is the HGA and the Beast, the Angel and the Shadow, combined into one entity in "dispute" with itself. It is an entity which does not make the qliphotic aspects less wild, but incorporates the qliphotic aspects in their total destructive capacity.
This is a quite different approach than the classical abrameline one, where the darkness is sought to be controlled, conquered and enslaved.
Links to books the books mentioned:
ajnabound.com
www.scarletimprint.com/diabolical.htm"Thanks for that feedback.
I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life.
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@he atlas itch said
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@atlantis said
"I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life."
"They are simply another layer of the Divine Hierarchy of a Sephirah etc. Once one has reasonable mastery of sojourning nonmaterial realms, one is able to make direct contact.
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""I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life.""
This is done by entering the Qliphas and working with them in an alchemical way. One is also to address the initiatory demonguides in the specific Qliphas.
The Samael Qliphah (the Poison of God) is the Qliphah of Hod and it is highly related to ego-loss. It is a tremendously destructive Qliphah and it must be worked in a disciplined way. It is very important here to really get access to the keys and not just get lost in this labyrinth.
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@he atlas itch said
"1. Are not the Klippot very different from the Sitra Achra – the latter being definitely non-anthropomorphic and referring to destructive forces of older destroyed worlds while the Klippot still relate somehow to the universe of mankind?
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Are the Klippot energetic shards formed from the shattering of primordial Man, Adam Qadmon? (Rabbi Luria seems to suggest this...)
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Do the 10 Klippot correspond in any way to the demonic entities listed in the Goetia or Abramelin?
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If the Klippot are shards from the shattering of Adam Qadmon, does the adept’s act of swearing their allegiance to the HGA constitute a form of tikkun, a slow piecing back together of Adam Qadmon?
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Once the demons swear their allegiance to the HGA, do they change from being perceived as “evil” to “good”? (I''m very interested in the transformation that occurs via this act)"
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The Qliphoth, in my understanding, represent the force of a given Sephiroth that is out of balance, such as the extreme severity of Geburah when not balanced by Chesed or the passivity of the mercy of Chesed when not balanced by Geburah. It is important to keep in mind that the Tree of Life is a harmonious system. Also, the Qkiphoth are not merely the opposite of a given Sephera or it's flipside. The term Sitra Achra can be taken to mean many things, the other side of what?
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I suppose that would be the case if you are a Qabalist of the Lurianic school.
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No, the entities in the Goetia and the Abramelin are considered "infernals" and are from a much different cosmological structure than that of the Tree of Life. In the cosmology of many of the grimoires there are infernal, Terrestrial and Aerial spirits. The Tree of Life does not conform to this structure. That is not to say that you can't fit Goetic and Abramelin spirits onto a given part of the diagram somewhere somehow.
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I would certainly hope so yes, if that's your cosmology/qabalah.
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So far concerns the Law of Thelema, yes. A Christian magician may have other ideas.
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Sure. That can be one way of looking at it. And it has its merits from a practical viewpoint. Thus: to be able to expand the horizons from the limiting aspects of the Sephiras, the Qliphas is used. The descent into the Qliphas becomes a method of initiation.
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Indeed. Most of these entities are more closely connected to the Qliphas. Although some also provide initiation on how to use the Sephiras. Those that do not are quite dangerous to work with.
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@atlantis said
"3. Indeed. Most of these entities are more closely connected to the Qliphas. Although some also provide initiation on how to use the Sephiras. Those that do not are quite dangerous to work with."
My experience with spirits from the Goetia causes me to disagree about connecting them with the qliphot. I think that they are simply a very "low" order of spirits. Somewhere just above elementals, so much to say, that they(at least the ones I have dealt with) have a "self-awareness." I also feel think that their nature reflects the mind of the magician, if you see muck you get muck with this order. I have never had to threaten with punishment evoking these beings, probably because I did a lot of alchemical work to elevate myself MONTHS prior to the evocation, so naturally when I called them they responded as though their God had called (and he did!).
I confess I haven't worked with ALL of them but my experience tells me that it would not be to difficult to accomplish (although I don't see much reason to right now). According to Crowley some spirits only respond to curses, I think I gather what that means because a Goetic that I work with seems to only get the job done if I start to lose my temper (ie. lost packages, short paychecks, troubles at work etc.) then suddenly BANG! I get what I want and their seemed to be no reason to get upset in the first place
! (generally, this is followed by some sort of impulsive insane laughter) -
If you are not contacting them to make alliances, it can be quite wise to protect yourself in the way that works best. IE: if one is not working with the Left Hand Path.
These demons might seem quite un-initiatory in the beginning when one browse through their descriptions. But even the descriptions sometimes can be quite clear about the initiatory value of some of them, quite plainly. See for instance Paimon, a personal favorite.A demon which at face value seems to be about getting laid or making people undress is not only able to do such things; they often have a good understanding of sexuality, and can be great mentors in sexual alchemy - an example of the depth of these descriptions.
The Goetic demons can indeed do the described things for the magician - but I think you underestimate their power and their own interests.
For the adept of the Left Hand Path (by which I mean an adept who works with the Left hand aswell - not trying to subordinate it or shunning it) the Goetic entities are possible alliance partners - they can initiate the adept into many aspects of the trees.
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Please re-read what I wrote:
@TheSilent1 said
" ...I did a lot of alchemical work to elevate myself MONTHS prior to the evocation, so naturally when I called them they responded as though their God had called (and he did!). "
I initiated myself into their sphere at the highest level, then I brought the light down to them. The compact formed at that level was simple: "Aide me in my work, provide what I need to complete what I work (based upon the powers of the spirit), do so without deception and trickery, and perform all of these matters in accordance to the laws of Karma, etc.. do this and I as I elevate myself I will take you with me." (Or something like that, I think that pretty much sums up the idea.)
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The difference between working with them from a RHP perspective (which you seem to be doing) is that doing that means that you have already decided that the gnosis of the left emanations is to be stayed away from.
The AbraMelin is a good example of this. The idea that you are supposed to meet and subdue, definately not open up to and be initiatiated by, these forces.That is quite different than the Left Hand Path. Of course, these demons could be of aid for doing such things as finding a lost wallet as a small favor to you. But that is quite different than meeting these forces in a way where one does not try to sudbue them with for instance the sun of Tiphareth. The adept only climbing the tree of life and not receiving initiation into the tree of knowledge may have the idea that he is superior to these spirits and see them as insignificant. That is however not strange; what is outside of the horizon when you have the experience that the place where you are standing right now is important, what lies beyond the horizon is just not interesting.
I am not saying either is better. I am saying there is more to this particular cake than the first layer.
Ps: In just the same way as you on the street would pass by a secret chief and not notice it, maybe ask her to spare some change for your busticket and afterwards think: "Oh, everything runs so smoothly in my life."
Sure, the secret chief might help you with that, but that says nothing about what she might be able to do for you had you asked and been ready for something else.
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This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens.
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I don't see how what I do is either right or left, it is merely a method. My point was simply that there is no evidence to support the spirits of the goetia as being qliphotic, and I also gave a formula by which to deal with them.
The simple fact that I have given something a purpose does not mean that I have subdued it, you are implying that:- the spirit has a will of it's own [which may or may not be true/if true then it's will would certainly be in line with god of it's sphere]
- that I have somehow through force or what not I have made it go against it's will which is NOT THELEMA! [which tells me you don't even see the elegance of the system that I have outlined]
If you feel the need to color techniques as black or white or right or left, well that is your limited paradigm. Honestly, I can't see how you can possibly see the light from the muck of the sewers, but to each their own.
@AEternitas1 said
"This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens."
You are absolutely right, and that is what I am trying to say without saying it.
*edit for typo and spacing to be more readible