Bdsm, Magick, and a tantric theory??(not sure)

[izzy_suicide]

actually,i'm dead curious to see what others know about voodoo (i call it voodoo because i'm still in the early stages of learning)..to explain things properly,i'ld always been completely in love with the concept of voodoo since seeing the serpent and the rainbow as a kid..(way too young actually....like....growing up i tried to find more out about it,but the only books i could find were fiction,so as the years went on i guess i forgot all about it untill two years ago.

         at this point life was a bit much to handle if i'm honest,the same old boring story about need money everyone at some point has.i also had experienced some personal events that needed time to settle in my head,and above all else...had decided months before that god,was in fact....a right horribly cruel bastard overall.i mean,i spent half my life praying in the name of jesus,and got buggerthebugger all in return but feeling like crap.it was high time for a beer and re-assesment,if anyone can relate.

  with no money i wandered in a charity shop to kill time and spotted the book that in all honesty,changed my life. "urban voodoo" by the man himself...dr.christopher s hyatt with jason s.black.i spent the milk money on it and headed home,where in the next two days i read every word,and started from scratch again.

    actually,i spent the rest of the summer reading it over and over,page for page.things that stood out were making so much sense it almost was like i'ld already known it.

....also,as a sidenote,ive always been into the history of rock n roll,and had been listening to robert johnson quite a lot,leadbelly,nick drake.....i noticed they all used these references to black dogs(then i remembered zeppelin....)...the constant thought of being hounded......i went to th door...said hello satan.....its time to go...

now heres where it really gets a bit lame sounding.anyone here seen the film crossroads?....where steve vai and the katatekid cut heads betting soul for soul?....it happened to be on one late night when my pixie had fallen asleep in her chair.....the name legba circled my head for days.....i refered to my book,which spoke of an experience where "eshu" contacted dr.hyatt...

folks....i let an embarrasing brown spot in the arse of my jeans......spiritually.....
i had to know if i could really be feeling like something anted to make contact,but with no real clue except dr.hyatts good word,i drew a crude rendering of papa legba's veve.....stood it in my kitchen.....smoked a big fat joint and stared at it for at least 20 minutes.

i dont expect anyone to believe what i'm saying,but after while,i could clearly see the veve become a shadowy moving figure of a man walking from a great distance toward me.as he got closer,i could make out the details of his very finely cut hat,a simple black walking stick.....a string tie.......what held me from screaming in absolute terror was the fact that this approaching figure never once lost his charming toothy smile..and the overall feel of the room was almost like being at a really great party with old friends....where youre more comfortable than drunk....during this entire meeting...the only clear message i got was "black coffee...."

the next night i made a cup of black coffee and sat it in frnt of the veve,left the room for a few moments,and upon return,saw the coffee had gone down in the mug a considerable amount.

i'm running short of time,but that incident happened about 2 years ago,since then ive been studying dr.hyaatts "pacts with thedevil"...along with things ive found online.as yet,ive still not found any other source for voodoo.

i still speak with the spirit i call papa legba very frequently.although the bond hasnt gotten loads stronger,i've always felt we're connected very well dispite that.

let me know what you think,and i again state.i dont expect anyone to believe my take on these things,and outside opinions are exactly what i hope for so i can learn as much as possible.

[__THE_HERMIT__]

voodoo is very real in its effects! I've spent a lot of time in Nigeria and have been fortunate(or unfortunate) to witness it firsthand. There is an altogether different feel over there, especially away from the towns and big cities closer to the forests; a higher energy level, the intensity is almost tangible sometimes! there seem to be spirits everywhere! both the entities which you mention seem to be from the "Yoruba" pantheon; Eshu is "the trickster"(usually translated devil), there are others like "Shango"(god of thunder), Ogun(god of war/iron) Shopona(god of chicken pox) and Ifa who is more mathematical, his divination system is similar to the i-ching. As for Papa L'egba who is unknown to me I would assume he is a lesser spirit maybe a derivative probably more popular amongst diaspora in south America or the Islands, egba can be translated "stick" and papa is pretty much synonymous with the obvious meaning; so Papa L'egba could simply mean "old man with the stick"(I speak Yoruba quite fluently) i'm not sure he would be considered a god though. of all the above i am most curious about "Ifa" and his system of divination otherwise i am not particular attracted to voodoo at this point in time. however i could suggest particular areas where the spirits seem particularly active and where you would probably find "Baba Alawo's" who are particularly powerful if that is the type of research you are into, i have friends who are royalty over there, and the royalty over there is especially entrenched in the most powerful voodoo. I would propose that the voodoo at source is more authentic and powerful than in the diaspora.

[izzy_suicide]

what i'ld give to walk in the actual land where "voodoo" is a living breathing practise!..as i said before,where i'm a beginner i seem to take the longest road to the easiest point every time i try to look further into the matter,so i've been more or less following dr.hyatts books and what papa legba seems to tell me himself.

i get the impression,though i may be very wrong,that the legba i know is a part of a large family of spirits,i suppose each one has thier own crossroad to guard,i also believe that he's trying to push me toward santeria-style practice,but i havnt found the way yet to explain to him 1) i'm a white boy trying to get my head around some very new subjects and 2)i dont know the first damn thing about santeria.the "devil" connection though speaks volumes to me personally,because legba to me seems very much a lucifer-esque charactor.boldly talented,artistic,knowledgable,and maybe a bit of a rabble rouser when pushed into service.

i've had several experiences with him as a guide,but,sometimes the old boy isnt in a taking mood lol.

now shango is another spirit that seemed to come after papa legba first made contact,and he usually only appears when my pixie is baking or cooking a meal,so she had the brilliance to make a plate for him in the arly stages of our research and the result afterward was a feeling of calm contentment which ran through our home for weeks afterward.

thus far,i havnt really asked these spirits for anything,though i make small offerings out of respect and gratitude for the contact they make.but we made a small mistake of leaving chocolate as an offering in our hallway(which is a weird spot,it opens into two distinct crossroad pathways to get into rooms...so theres always 4 directions you can turn)....i think the chocolate made something VERY hyper,as lights would turn off and on,books fell from shelves,and at one point the bulb in the hallway itself exploded glass into my face with such force i almost fell,but wasnt cut,scratched or harmed in any way...could that be the trickster comming out of the papa legba spirit?

[pixie_pseuicide]

papa Legba as i know it is of the Elegula (Sp) family... one representitive of it so to speak...

I have to say after Master telling me about this post that he forgot our "welcoming" by the eshu! We worked out verbally about 5 weeks into having our second child and first son... Master was relating it to me like the eshu were pranksters... thier humour of a mischeif maker but with different reasons... i dont remmber the coversation entirely now but i remember just as it "clicked" and i felt my eyes water (weird thing i do i guess) i looked down and we both watched him smile for the very first time.. we looked at eachother then back to him and

POP!

all the lights blew out of the house and we had to go scrambling for torches and candles giggles.. i got the very strong impression that THEY... the ESHU.. had seen it happen too, and as we was talking of them, they wanted to make sure WE knew lol...

smiles... i'm not scared of the voodoo dieties gods and spirits that we've come across (although at first when Master started showing signs of falling for voodoo (much like a romance lol...) i realised i'd better get some understanding quickly!!

I personally fell into Erzulies open arms grins she's given me a lot of support over hard times, and most of my jewely and make up i've ended up giving in offering to her along with milky sweet tea and drawings lol...even my engagement ring..

These "spirits" whichever anybody wants to call them, CARE... and they dont leave your questions unanswered for very long....smiles... i'm personally picking up a lot of IFRA lately....

[Labyrinthus]

@_aLL_seEIng_eYe_ said

"I would propose that the voodoo at source is more authentic and powerful than in the diaspora."

I was reading in the Deng Ming Dao trilogy about a Kung Fu monk who fled China when Mao was destroying the monasteries and came to San Francisco. He reported how certain rituals and incantations that worked very reliably for him in China did nothing at all in this new land.

[gurugeorge]

Hey Pixie, kept meaning to mention this but forgetting - but you are aware that AC did have a "BDSM" type relationship at one point in his life (with a German lady called Anny Ringler - she was a masochist who enjoyed being whipped)? But that's the only specific occasion I can recall where he was properly into that stuff. He did recommend at the very least that one be familiar with the "classic" literature (e.g. De Sade, Sacher-Masoch, some parts of the Kama Sutra, etc.).

I think he would have looked kindly on the BDSM scene as it is. I'm not hugely into it myself (except occasionally in fantasy), but it's good that people experiment and pursue their heart's desire (so long as it's all fundamentally consenting of course) and it sometimes amazes me how bold and outrageous people can be with their sexual proclivities. Hardly anybody is "normal" sexually

[Poet]

@izzy_suicide said

"poet,i enjoyed reading your post ,and its made my mind wander a bit about some things,so i'ld like to reply.before i begin though,i'ld like to say,what i post may offend some people,i understand that my point of view may not be for everyone,but make no bones,i'm no racist.

                     first,we by now all realize that the very word "slave" conjures images of horrors and suffering,of unlimited cruelty and the ugliness of mans true nature.

                     however,what strikes me as odd is,in thes modern times,and for all my 33 years of existance,the word "slave" is always attributed to a black person in most peoples eyes.the televised image of kunta kinte,stolen from his home and chained,beaten,crippled and in the end,owned even in his death seems to be the popular view on "that dark time in history"....i aint ashamed to admit it,i cried like a baby when fiddler died,it made me sick to be a white man.for a moment as i dried my eyes,i was almost ashamed to be called "master" by my pixie.

                     however,at some point or other,every race has given its share of slaves.we've just had the image of the bound black man forced upon us more and more in recent years,and i believe its been used as a sigil by someone with a much greater understanding of the spirits than i.

          "

Interesting point.
The Malcom X quote is obviously about the Black slave reality, because that was who his audience was. He had no interest (at least at the time of that quote) in engaging with White people in any way whatsoever.
But I can see you are right in some respect.
Though, obviously the Black slave trade was the worlds largest and most blatant sign of slavery at least in relatively modern times.
I think however that I might be tempted to think we prefer to connect the 2 ideas - Slavery and the Black man, because its easier than admitting our own slavery.
We are the collateral our governments borrow national debt against.
The majority of our taxes are paid straight to our financial owners against that debt.
Taxes and the modern Corporate-Welfare state are modern slavery, and most of us know it, but admitting our own slavery to ourselves is to admit our own weakness and submission to that slavery, and we know people aren't keen on that.
Much easier to point to the "other" slave than question it within ourselves.

@izzy_suicide said

"

                     but can we truely dismiss the thought that without those periods in history (and argueably today),we'ld truely be better off now?....take a while and actually consider that idea....had no one ever taken a slave of ay kind....where would we be as humans RIGHT NOW.

"

An endless argument pitting progress made in the material realm against wealth lost in the non-material.
Maybe we are better off with the latest Iphones and Celebrity Big Brother?
But have we not lost more in reducing the worlds rainforests from 14% of land mass to just 6% so far to achieve those great heights?
Time will have to tell on that one. Though the Easter Islanders may have something to teach us there.

@izzy_suicide said

"

                     the field slave did dispise thier masters,thats true,and the house slave played the role of "good nigger".the underlying difference between both and a bdsm slave is.....neither the field slave or the house slave had the choice to serve,and in that very statement rends any comparison completely useless.its not like comparing apples and oranges which will both only turn out to be fruit,its comparing styrofoam to jupiter."

I wasn't making the comparison on the basis of the concrete reality of the field/house slave condition to someone in a BDSM relationship, but more to the mentalities as expressed by Malcolm X.

The field slave sought freedom.
The house slave thought his version of slavery made him as free as he could be.
Just because he was unable to imagine any kind of freedom beyond his current situation, that alone did not make him free. Far from it.

[izzy_suicide]

believe it or not,i actually agree with you poet. i dispise this modern world of corperate vampirism,and if i were younger and without children,quite probably i would be attacking bnp rallies and burning down starbucks outlets.in fact....every time a starbucks or walmart/asda's opens..my heart bleeds for the people that just ended up unemployed and probably foolish enough to have the damned coffee and then shop inside the worlds biggest ripoff chain.we are all indeed slaves...and freedom is the myth they keep us trapped by.i dont want to start arguements,but nothing saddens me more than a proud mother of a soldier.it actually makes my stomach churn.

but there is magick at work to ensave us all,and the horrible bastards in charge are damned fine magicians.i have no shame in petitioning the spirits for money,as its sadly such a major part of everyones life.

though when i hear someone like jorden maxwell speak endlessly about how the politicians gain power from havng power,it makes sense to me that acting that role might have magnificant magickal rewards.the few rituals i've done my best to perform in bdsm style do seem to yeild quite heavy activity,though,i do admit..part of me just wanted at first to know for sure there ARE higher spirits than us humans.and now that i know for sure,i feel much better within myself,i searched christianity for this kind of personal contact for years,but jesus must have been busy when i prayed.lucifer however,always accepts my collect calls,and many others seem to at least nod in my direction,its a beautifull feeling.

i wonder,if all of us who feel mainly the same way about being trampled under corperate feet and crucified by the vatican,if we all stood together and made our petitions to the higher spirits,if the possibility to change things for the better would appear.i cant go out in punk rock style setting fires to political billboads anymore,but honestly,ive mulled over trying a little spell to hush david camerons communist agenda,though i havnt nearly the experience for that.nice fantasy though lol

i do also wonder if my aforementioned "image of the black man as slave" IS being used as a sigil,it definately blinds us to our own suffering in the here and now,what other draw might it have....its an image burned into many hearts and minds so it would hold great power.

[Poet]

@izzy_suicide said

"

i do also wonder if my aforementioned "image of the black man as slave" IS being used as a sigil,it definately blinds us to our own suffering in the here and now,what other draw might it have....its an image burned into many hearts and minds so it would hold great power."

It is a very valid thought.
As for other draws, it perhaps also feeds into the racists excuse for their behaviour of people of colour being of somehow "lesser" stock, that they somehow allowed themselves to be put into captivity because they weren't as "smart" as us to think of it first.

In terms of your ritualistic plans for our Dear Leader Dave, then I think we can safely leave that idiot schoolboy to his own undoing, which I doubt will be too long coming. He almost certainly will have already had his legs slapped at Buckingham Palace for his dumb comments in Pakistan....
There are always tunnels in Paris.

That last bit was for the Jordan Maxwell fans.

[pixie_pseuicide]

Owh what a twisted web we weave lolol Not a lot of people i've spoken to who research magick realise that the "conspiracy theories" (which arent that at all they are logical and fact driven) and how Gov's work - and the music industry "outs" are directly related www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv0J10_YayY <-- best documentary on it i've seen VERY informative (makes sure you watch intro1 and 2, but alas...not all of the documentary was translated despite me begging the person who did to keep going...five parts are definately worth it)

I think that AC was a bit torn... the man obviously wanted to be known for his mind (hence his books) but i think the "stigma" of being the Wickedest Man In The World appealed to him more... and he pushed the boundaries of what was accepted (in context of the times especially, some are strict taboo's even now) ..

What i dont get about AC followers (strange considering our path leads us to thelema very often...) he obviously disliked the idea of religions and was for better or worse showing people how they could open their gates of society driven "depravity" and that shedding some of these can be insightful ...when you combine what is known with him, with his works, i think most people have gotton it a bit backwards..everyone has thier OWN paths... he was against religion...shakes my head my own interpretation of course....

i do think the black slave is a sigil after seeing that... and i do think its a distraction also from our own slavery... its a very valid point (because it turns the English White Man/woman idea of "slavery" so radically different from thier own... ( eg the debates on black "slaves" of bdsm.. they get a LOT of flack for expressing themselves in any bdsm community by thier own... bit sad because isnt that letting GO of the past???? and the impressions and burdens they walk with when they look the "white devil" in the eyes??? i say good for them, even if in thier shoes i dont think i would have gone down this path)

Tsarion has a good documentary on youtube also that Masters been piping at me to put out for everyone too lol... i beleive the videos have been "revised" since i've last seen them or i'd put the link here, just type michael tsarion symbolism into the search and you'll come up with quite a few (many people have "debunked" him or beleive they have... but the whole idea of philosophy and decoding the present is personal interpretation!!)

btw as an afterthought... in role of Master and slave (a slave that admits she wants to be pushed and prooves it herself/himself too so there is NO misunderstanding) everything that society deems inapropriate kink wise is now available for use or consideration at the very least... its a very powerful and heady feeling being pushed past your current limitation (to be more apt its pushing YOURSELF...the Master mediates the guidance)

i beleive if you want to push and break boundaries and limits of a non-interactive world... you have to change the set up..constantly change...constantly do things you wouldnt , constantly recognise and draw upon your own strength(/power) and the world seems to flow accordingly, bringing you opportunities to use the aquired skills and be proud of them...even to the everyday mundane visit to the dentist... lol today i went through a very hard time that "I" personally didnt feel i was presant for, as i drew on the same inner strength and personality i do whilst pushing myself past limits with my Master.. and if i hadnt have gone through sometimes painfull acts of endurance and calm within it... the trip would have been VERY different... (i'm going to ramble some lol... Master said he was so proud of me for being so strong and brave...i smiled at him and told me that it was all down to him, and he smiled and saw the truth in that and he was proud of himself also... my slavery is often a crutch, as opposed to a ball and chain)

[Danica]

izzy_suicide,
about Voodoo maybe you could contact Michael Bertiaux, a contemporary magician from USA (a famous one!) who as I understood works with Voodoo and is a Thelemite...

[izzy_suicide]

i've sort of stayed distant on this thread in a way,i suppose because i was interested to see what conversations would arise and what perspectives offered,and then it dawned on me,i've never fully explained how deeply magick is involved in my relationship with my gorgeous pixie.

i am her master,24 hours a day,7 days a week,and in turn she is my slave,and yet we're equals in every imaginable way,as you all well know,a master without a slave is emptiness personified.
she is my goddess and becomes the physical embodiment of all female divinity,she is kali,she is lilith,she is eve's inborn hunger for the taste of the apple,she is the bitch to my beast,and never beneith me,never above me,she IS who i am and aspire to become.

she is my mistress without exchanging or forgetting her place she willingly and whole heartedly accepts at my feet,she is initiation,intuition,a vision and the prophet combined,a question and an answer unasked and unanswered,she is baphomet and abraxas,duality and individual,a sacriment and sacrifice,she is oshun dancing in the shadows on our wall,she is the ritual and the ceremony,and the word of the high christ the bible buried in the depths of the vatican's basement.

she is the alter on which i present my offering,and in return i offer myself as the same for her,she is the very essence of my own true will,and within her own all the while.

i am drunk on her glances,and tranced at the words she speaks when we enter the unseen temple,she provides the mindscape while i provide the landscape,populated by spirits of the air and demons of the sinning flesh...

i cannot breathe without her,she is my addiction,there is nothing she could ask for that i wouldnt do,and because of this knowledge asks for so little it could be mistaken for nothing at all.

she is my dark mother,hellbent on destruction and leaving the trail of creation in her wake,a new world that destroys the chains of my past and hers,and her love heals the scars that cover my body as a reminder that all the past is best left behind.

she is the love of my life,my closest friend and most playful enemy,a sparring partner never afraid to throw hands at face level,and a poet who traces the untold lines of history back to a time before existance existed.

she is my everything,my universe,my heart and the one who helped me find my soul.

".....everythings clearer on her side of the mirror,everythings clearer in my broken mirror...and all the stars refused to shine all the way between her house and mine........."

ps...maybe this post isnt so much for everyone else,maybe its for my beloved kedeishah...

[pixie_pseuicide]

~smiles~ I've been sitting on that post a while now hehe ... thank you Baby you melt me every day xxx

Between riddled contradiction and harnessed duality there is something so amazingly pure in not just the way we interact with one another, but also in the attention it draws...

Its funny... i had three seperate hobbies...one learning about myself and fixing the glitches before they can be a problem..i've done this since being little.... two my love for mysticism and magick ...and three the unquestionable dirty deeds i wanted to experience in the bedroom....who knew they would all join up as one?!

In our practises we have had a lot of success with phsyical manifestation and whilst i understand the concept of iniation "of the school" or order etc... Ours happened and we didnt realise until maybe three more times in, and discussing parts we remembered, and a lot of signs that are presenting themselves to us.

I think one of the unconsidered main parts of BDSM "play" (As it can be soley play, you dont have to stretch out into every hour of the day, dabbling with it for an hour and half here and there i would assume would produce the same effects) Is that the operations are to ... melt and reshape reality depending on where your head is at. Some of the elements to bdsm can totally be incorperated as ways to enter one headspace and go through another... a speedy (quite thrilling) way to meditate, and possibly even skip a few of the normal steps in Rituals. (Esp preparation)

Flogging in itself has the quick ability to produce a "trance" ... it is painless, (depending on how you use it. you cant do physical damage with a flogger unless you're moving away from safe areas ie you wouldnt want to flog a ballsack or a nipple as hard as you could, as that WOULD be painfull lmao...you're not idiots you get the gyst) When flogged on the back, maybe kneeling down or even laying, you can feel the many suede strands drag over your skin and slide down your sides... the harder hits feel more like a distant "thud" than like you've been hit with a weapon. Obviously if you keep hitting the same area over and over (be carefull of hips and the fleshy parts of your shoulders when bunched up as this can sting a little) will cause discomfort. The sensations bring on your endorphins, your body's natural painkiller that spaces your head quite a bit..i dont think anybody really ~wants~ the flogging to end... (Very recently i gave Izzy this gift, to feel what it is like, but not as his dominant but as his slave... we dont "switch"...i got a LOT out of doing it also...)

Blindfolds heighten other senses, and "lock" you in your head (as oposed to opening your eyes to distance yourself from the "chatter"

I've spoken about "sub space" before... Some people beleive in sub space (which is pretty much trance) like i do... and others dont... like Izzy doesnt/didnt in the bdsm communitys sense. (he'd have to put up his own oppinion on that one as its been a while since we discussed it) I've spoken to many other subbies who love to tell how they get all jibberishy and/or just feel very soft and content... some compare it to a mental orgasm... some feel the need to be stroked and held until they "come down"... ive heard stories about subbies who have gone to play parties and have gone on demonstration, and how they wasnt allowed to go and drive home until those watching out for them were satisfied that the haze had lifted. This could just be perceived as the buzz.

The Buzz would be a combination of A) having realised a fantasy. B) Having been "Displayed" which could be interwoven with "on alter" in one aspect, and as another, actually "being" a demonstration i imagine would be very state altering... and of course the good ol exhibitionist rush lol...

I'd like to hear others thoughts on what they consider to be similarities of where bdsm can take you and where you go for Magick's sake. (And i'd like to hear from the Master's veiw point also (even my own hehe as he's sleepin right now) If there are any similarities between Mastering a person and Mastering "Magick"....and of course, speculation from all walks