Good or Evil
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I never said that pathology was a necessary ingredient but rather it's not something that I (also having not attained Binah) can rule out. It is not my call if someone is or is not expressing their True Will, hence my argument that Hitler may have very well been expressing his True Will.
" It may be the inevitable result of the chain of causation that led to that point. But it doesn't exist for the sake of leading to True Will, it exists as a result of someone along the chain not following their True Wills."
We will have to agree to disagree. Even despite the fact that I was an abused child, I still feel that when we incarnate, we have some choice in it. There is something to be learned and something gained, something to help guide us on our way, in the many paths out there - no matter how ugly/horrific it may appear.
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@TheSilent1 said
" If an individual is performing Magick then they must be in conformity with their Will, and cannot cause harm to anything not even their own self.
Any situation where something harmful is done, by definition is NOT Magick. There is a misconception that works of Thaumaturgy (wonder working) is Magick, but this is not necessarily so, it is merely another means of causing an effect. To cast a spell, so to speak to kill somebody out of jealousy or some other petty reason, is as far from Magick as shooting a person with a gun for the same petty reason."
it guess it depends on what you consider majik. sacrificing...humans...or animals....and getting a result...that to me, would still be majik. using bones of the dead to bring up that individual to talk with them...that to me, is majik ...
you stated it is not "magick".....so give it a name...what do you call it?
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@TheSilent1 said
"I must politely reassert the definition of Magick: to cause Change in conformity to Will. The Will, as I have come to understand is always for Life. Although sometimes we must burn ourselves to learn that: "fire is hot," we really are not performing Magick until we have aligned ourselves with our True Will. THEN, when we chose to go against that Will, we are going against the universe."
to you confirming to your will is Life
but life...and death...are 2 sides of the same coin. Tenth Sefirot of the tree of life would not exist if there waz not 2 sides of the coin.
do you not know there iz a reverse side to the tree of life?
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@TheSilent1 said
"Can a person take the lives of others without the reflux of the Will of the Universe?"
yes
of course they can. if that persons Will is against the Will of the universe/YHWH. iz it evil to kill a mass murder? iz it evil to kill even a child thatz destiny will to be one day like Hitler?
thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so.
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@Qemuel said
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@TheSilent1 said
" If an individual is performing Magick then they must be in conformity with their Will, and cannot cause harm to anything not even their own self.Any situation where something harmful is done, by definition is NOT Magick. There is a misconception that works of Thaumaturgy (wonder working) is Magick, but this is not necessarily so, it is merely another means of causing an effect. To cast a spell, so to speak to kill somebody out of jealousy or some other petty reason, is as far from Magick as shooting a person with a gun for the same petty reason."
it guess it depends on what you consider majik. sacrificing...humans...or animals....and getting a result...that to me, would still be majik. using bones of the dead to bring up that individual to talk with them...that to me, is majik ...
you stated it is not "magick".....so give it a name...what do you call it?"
First of all, I am coming from Crowley's definition of Magick, which I don't care to define again.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C Clarke.
Perhaps, you are the one in need of a name, and indeed I provided a name: thaumaturgy. Unfortunately, there is a great misconception that certain acts are by CROWLEY"S DEFINITION, Magick. We simply do not fully understand how the mind works yet. Are those that successfully use techniques from the piece of trash called "The Secret" performing magick? Superficially it may seem to be so, however, they are merely training their minds to "tune in" to the fulfillment of their desires. Still others use ceremony to accomplish their goals, but really the are not changing the macrocosm they are merely playing with themselves. One could also say that they are creating sigils or thought-form or astral talismans, it doesn't really matter what you call it.
If you choose to call such things Magick that is fine. However, I think you a greatly lowering the standards of the Art and Science of attaining True Wisdom and Understanding by doing so. By holding the term Magick to a higher standard such as Crowley did you do yourself a great service in your aspirations. The ceremonies become meaningful, and you develop a relationship between yourself and the Universe. But if you wish to drag the idea through the mud then all you will see is mud and all you will do will be mud.
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"Can a person take the lives of others without the reflux of the Will of the Universe?"
Liber Oz rather clearly states that man has the right to kill those who thwart the rights listed there.
However, I notice it doesn't say anything one way or the other about the psychological and spiritual consequences. It merely lists it as a right.
Elsewhere, we are also told that we "have no right but to do [our] Will."
In one of Crowley's fiction works, there is (I'm gonna need some help with this one) a character who - at the end of Moonchild, perhaps? - who must go off to war. When another asks him about his level of inner conflict about it, he responds something like, "If my body needs to sneeze, should I not sneeze?" (confirmation/correction appreciated)
I think Liber Oz was written to ensure that there would be no question about whether or not a person has the right to emancipate themselves. But I think there is also much more to learn than the rights of Liber Oz.
Theres' not a simple answer for me. Thoughts?
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@Iaomai said
"Liber Oz rather clearly states that man has the right to kill those who thwart the rights listed there."
Yes, and Liber OZ is just an opinion piece. It's a Class E document. It warrants all the respect of an opinion piece from Crowley - no more and no less.
It was a clever writing exercise for him - an effort to state a political philosophy in English words of one syllable. (The quotes from Liber L. don't count in this regard - Liber OZ itself has only one-syllable words.) One huge flaw is that this leaves it sexist and divisive, employing unisexual language that is unacceptable today. (And there is no way to fix that except by breaking the original monosyllabic basis of the document.)
All that aside, however, Liber OZ presents a certain ethical problem to be solved. I don't think the ethical problem is in the document so much as in ourselves. That is, I've found most people reflexively relate to it as rights they can claim for themselves. However, claiming such rights only works in a context where everyone has those rights. After a period of thinking this through, I found that the only psychologically safe way to approach it is to see Liber OZ as a catalogue of all the rights we are each willing to give everybody else - without ever worrying about whether we have them ourselves. (The consequence is, of course, a context in which we all have the same rights.)
Sorry... that's possible a bit of a digression from the main topic, and I don't mean to derail... but thought it worth remarking.
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Good or Evil, as applied to anyone (other than yourself), will always be a social construct. Any "objective morality" is a precursor to a mental slavery.
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@kuniggety said
"We will have to agree to disagree. Even despite the fact that I was an abused child, I still feel that when we incarnate, we have some choice in it. There is something to be learned and something gained, something to help guide us on our way, in the many paths out there - no matter how ugly/horrific it may appear."
It is my understanding (although I cannot remember if it is one source or a mixture of sources) that have the choice to be born into this life or this path as some may call it. Before we are born we are show what our whole life will be like and some possible points of changing paths and what may happen if we change paths. This is why some people may think that they have lived this same life. No matter which choice you take you already have seen the outcome of that choice.
In essence there may be only will. True will as I understand it is will that is universal will and for the good of mankind. Then there is personal will where you may not do much good or bad. Then there is what I call anti true will which goes against human existence. End the end there still is will which can be shaped in so many ways that I cannot name them.
I am sure that someone understands this better or may have an explanation that may not agree but still may be better.
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones -
@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become a lot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"I agree with Vlad. If you can prove that the true will of Hitler helped improve the world then he would have been doing true will which is true to that what is considered good for the earth. Hitler was only allowed to do what he did because there were other people that had something to gain from his idea. Like me getting friends to help rob a bank (not that I would). We all would have something to gain from it. This thing that they were going to gain was worldly. The true will does not seek that which is worldly but that which is spiritual.
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"This is a grossly un-Thelemic point of view (even more so because this is one kind of violation that rarely makes the victim stronger).
Start with the idea of respecting others' wills foremost, and you'll start understanding Thelema a great deal more.
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No it wasn't my point. I just exemplified Qemuel's logic. My first friend ever (cousin) has been sexually abused from the day she could walk to her youth as much as you and I breathe.
As for me, I block everything. Let's just say I feel no pain and will never, I think.
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"Destroy the traitors."
This is the basis of evil in Thelema. To know evil one must have been surrounded by evil, and returned uncorrupted. No simple task. And certain of those here speak as though ones instucted in the nature of horror.
There are two Trees of Life--each stage has its every evil. And remember that the strong are few.
The Princes are to be approached with respect--but never nonchalance! I'm chuckling. Like so many officers ready to die at the front, and prove their courage--you yearlings want to dive right in. Sex Magick, the Qlippoth, Curses and "Evil Magick." Respect that which seeks to destroy thee, and attend to thy work with diligence.
I don't mean to sound like a wizened grouch--but trust me! There is a reason for the preparations and prerogatives. How is one unskilled in Asana or Yoga to confront the Keeper of the Gate?
Just be careful.
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"depends, what if she ends up leading a nation? or end up learning martial arts and saving someone elses life.
what about the rapist....what if after that rape he goes home and feels guilty...ends up changing his life around completely and vows to do good instead of evil.
u never realize what will end up doing good
even YOUR hardships in life mold YOU into who you will in the end.
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I think this is why I started studying magik. The reasoning was that if magiK is evil then I must study it and understand it in order to fight against it. I got this understanding from a few military philosophies about studying the enemy. That was about 20 years ago. The funny thing was I believed in magik, so in essence I was trying to find out why it was so bad. Now several years later I understand that magik is the essence of religion. So if magik is evil then religion is the bastard of that evil and wants to destroy its parents.
Magik teaches self control and power in the self.
Religion teaches control through others authority and removes the control of self and replaces it with control of others and power of others.
Hopefully my understanding is close to what the true understanding is.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"This is a grossly un-Thelemic point of view (even more so because this is one kind of violation that rarely makes the victim stronger).
Start with the idea of respecting others' wills foremost, and you'll start understanding Thelema a great deal more."
respecting others wills? what if there will goes against the True Will?
a saint or a sinner?
What if my destiny iz 2 burn this earth, turn it into ashes. 2 the point where very few humanz survive? but they go onto building a great wonderfull future, filled with peace, a "new heaven" on earth if u will. a culture where they substain from violence. would i be evil? or good?
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I think this is why I started studying magik. The reasoning was that if magiK is evil then I must study it and understand it in order to fight against it. I got this understanding from a few military philosophies about studying the enemy. That was about 20 years ago. The funny thing was I believed in magik, so in essence I was trying to find out why it was so bad. Now several years later I understand that magik is the essence of religion. So if magik is evil then religion is the bastard of that evil and wants to destroy its parents.
Magik teaches self control and power in the self.
Religion teaches control through others authority and removes the control of self and replaces it with control of others and power of others.
Hopefully my understanding is close to what the true understanding is.
"Religion itself, iz man made. Religion iz trying to understand thingz that humanz were never suppose to understand. Religion iz bondage, where u bind urself 2 teaches of man, where u do not gain knowledge for u r confined with what they taught.
Spirituality iz freedom, but can become dangerous. 4 urself, and 4 otherz.