Too much, too soon?
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What did you get yourself into, Marlowe? Your question seemed innocent enough!
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@Takamba said
"My question is, who here equates "abnormal" with "bad?""
That is so interesting that you brought this up, as I was thinking this earlier today...before I even read this thread.
I was thinking: generally people that practice ceremonial magick are probably considered "abnormal" (i.e. they all fit into a category of "people who practice ceremonial magick" which differs from standard behavior). What is the general opinion of this category in the medical community?
Takamba, I think we'd be officially called "bonkers". But, I'd never equate that with "bad".
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@Aegis55 said
"You have defined the upper end of the curve as abnormal instead of exceptional."
@Aegis55 said
"You just automatically thought it.
You equate it."
You see I work in psychiatry and it makes you unhappy... but you presume to know what I'm thinking? Isn't that a tad "Dear Pot, Yours sincerely, Kettle?"
I haven't defined anything... or anyone, I was making a point about a little knowledge and how I found my way very gently within a new frame of learning that most people stay away from. I was saying, clearly I thought, about not presuming one's own understanding is applicable to others, though there is value in sharing and finding those who have knowledge to offer. One of the first things I said was that I'm looking for help and good advice.
If you want to talk about exceptional, I work in a secure institution, caring for highly dangerous individuals. On top of that, I laugh while I'm working, I forget my job when I go home and I'm trying to get started with magick. I'm quite sure some of my colleagues would blink at the idea. If I were to touch this end of the bell-curve, the point would be sharp enough to cut, but it doesn't trouble me.
Psychiatry is a branch of medicine and as such deals with illness. As a service though, it deals with people, rather than say, a broken bone or a diseased lung (with all respect to sufferers and medics alike). This means it should factor in culture norms, individual choices and personal experiences. Its tricky in that the illness may well manifest and map itself onto someone's personality, which is a challenging and painstaking problem to address. People like me would prefer you to live your own life, rather than sacrifice it to social conformity. We do show concern when it hurts you though, or risks hurting other people when we believe on very ordinary grounds that you'd rather it didn't.
Treatment is a very intimate and sensitive area that operates through dialogue, empathy and taking risks. What's abnormal and what's exceptional are certainly different and both need to be understood. Abnormal is bad when it hinders what's exceptional. Exceptional is usually precious. I wouldn't use abnormality as a pathological concept unless it was volunteered for discussion and in such cases, its the patient who explores the concept as it relates to them. Its usually a negative term and my first thought would be to give it a sense of perspective. Its negative social concepts that need normalizing, not people per se.
@Aegis55 said
"When I come back.
I'll be suited up."
I'll say again, I came looking for knowledge, not ignorance. I abandoned stereotypical images a long time ago. I hope one day you'll be able to do the same.
@Frater 639 said
"What did you get yourself into, Marlowe? Your question seemed innocent enough!
"I'm not sure. My question is innocent and so am I. I'm not interested in getting into an argument thats irrelevant to my query, but I won't suffer my good character being assaulted on a first post.
And if anyone's still interested in my original question, I'd love to hear from you.
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Ahem...
For clarification for those who seem to require it constantly...
You have accepted his premise like a plague on your island.
"What did I say wrong?"
"I didn't say that."
You either trust this dog's nose, or you don't.
Period.
But that's up to you and your universe. I've spent a long time kicking the ass of those automatic assumptions out of my life and off my island. You make them work for their verbal power over you. You don't just...
Nevermind... That's what I mean.
It passes over me and around me, but I am not a part of this kind of thinking. It will not take root in me.
I touch my finger to the ground.
I am a pillar in the temple of my God.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law; love under will. -
Tell me, Doc. How would you interpret it if someone sent you this simple poem with some Cajun dialect in it?
Warrior Gene
Oh EuGEEEEENE....!
Hey, Eugene...!
Where are you, Genie?
Everybody's lookin' for you,
Talkin' 'bout activatin' you,
You really ought to get in there,
And speak for yo-self.Captain A?
Captain Who?
Captain A?
Captain Who?
Who you trying to train, che'?
Careful, might reveal a thing or two.Send them Eff'Kin cops,
Cap'm A don't care.
Hell, dey need to know.
Beast's a stirrin' agin'.
Hell, the kids are doin' it.
Don't know what dey found.
Know they wanna be free though.Callin' it up from deep.
Want the truth to prevail.
Gonna uncover it all.
They wanna do it right
With a passion we ain't
Seen in a while.But can they?
Do they know the stories?
No.
Do they know the math?
Yes.
Do they know the tests?
No.
Do they know the tradition?
No.
They just wakin' on up.
Managin' it wit dey high
And low.
Powerful angry though.
Ain't dat de story?
Ain't dat de tale?Careful.
What you gon' say?I gon' say, "First you make de roux..
And I'm tellin' you,
'Cause I don't wanna have to tell a foo'.
What else is the' to do?" -
@Marlowe said
"During today's meditation, I was rather taken aback to find myself touched by each of the angels with their various instruments, particularly that Michael pierced me - albeit painlessly - with his sword. The others, thankfully, were entirely gentle. During a later physical ritual, I saw all four angels leaning in towards me"
For starters, Michael is associated with the element of fire so he should be holding a fiery wand. Raphael is air so he should be holding the sword.
I would be curious to hear how your patients in the asylum respond to your steady practise of the LBRP. Are they more calm, less volatile, or are they responding more aggressively and unpredictably toward you?
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Thankyou, this is the kind of thing I want to learn about. Cicero's Essential Golden Dawn has them portrayed as I described them. My associations from Tarot work would have them the way you describe. I know something about elements but not much about angels and while I've bought a few standard texts, the experience of others is also important. I would like to start using the Middle Pillar exercise, but I feel I have to be patient in laying my foundations. While experimenting and building are important, I need to know what I'm getting right before I start tweaking or adding anything. I find discipline is invaluable in early practise in all walks of life.
From looking on different forums, I hear bits of information about when elemental associations are the way I understand them and others where they apparently differ. I have to begin somewhere with what I'm visualising, but I don't want to use my uneducated preferences to visualise incorrectly. I'm also cautious about how things develop if my basic images are at fault.
As regards work, some of our clients are so unstable that I wouldn't put any changes down to my use of the ritual at this stage. I have a very credible history in terms of cooling people out, but I'll be relying on my orthodox methods for the time being. We do use terms such as 'psychic assaults' in the psychotherapy field, which has correspondences with magick, but rather concretely as interpersonal exchanges rather than transmissions of energy. Projection is another connecting concept.
I'm keeping a diary of course and will be examining workplace experiences for anything of clear significance, such as any feelings similar to those I have while performing the LBRP. My hands get warm sometimes, but that might be adrenaline. If I find something definite, I promise I'll let you know. What is worth noting in terms of your question is that the settled members of the ward don't seem to have been stimulated by it. More than anything, I've found its a great exercise for detoxing after a hard day. I haven't slept so soundly and consistently for a long time.
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I personally found the mental health services to make things clear to some degree.
I am a paranoid schizophrenic in accordance to their pigeon holing technique.
So that i take a lot off medication, but and this is strange i suspect, to keep a blessing from turning into a curse.
I have diminished real feeling for the world but i do find that some things are very much as possible as originally.
I did magickal work before the diagnosis and will not be stopped by it -
Well, yeah. Who else are you going to go to? They're the doctors.
Seriously, if I could go back.... I'd say, "Hey, Marlowe, careful not to assume your experience with crazy people directly applies to the initiate."
I've been close to the argument lately, and the nerves are still a little ...sensitized.
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My experience with patients was meant to be comparable in terms of my meeting people with an alternative system of thought that is very personal in expression and requires a less concrete sense of self. Most of the people I've worked with have a very conventional view of life and when reality is either too hard or too soft, they're pretty much lost at sea. Its people with unusual experiences and perspectives that are easier to engage with.
Symptoms differ, but psychosis is fundamentally a symbolic state of mind. Sadly, the symbols have lost their spiritual/collective representation and become concrete and therein lies the problem. Psychotics and magical practitioners may inhabit the same plane of existence but the former drown where the latter swim and suffering people need help. I'm not pursuing this interest to evoke a negative psychotic experience. That may be a risk for me though and I have to pay heed to what patients have told me about it. I'm hoping magical work will add an extra dimension to my professional understanding. I didn't really want to bring up my professional life, but its evident there are parallels and I hope the magical community will accept the validity of psychiatry as a means to psychological health, much as I'm hoping to find that magic is.
If you see a psychiatrist to discuss non-physical or preternatural experiences, he'll assume you came with a problem and need his help. Its fair to say there are very few people in psychiatry who explore unusual forms of consciousness as a healthy idea because hardly anyone who practices magic comes to our attention. They're pretty comfortable with their experiences and may prefer to discuss their problems with other practitioners or someone in the spiritual profession.. The fact that magical practice considers a non-material plane of perception from a healthy perspective is part of what attracts me.
My first step in any ritual is to shut my curtains. I'm sure that if my neighbours saw me performing a banishing ritual, they'd think I was crazy and saying I wanted to work with magic wouldn't soothe them at all. But it doesn't put me off. I dare say there are forum members who've suffered psychological distress and some may have a diagnosed illness. I wouldn't expect any line of human interest to be different though. Aegis55 and Alien696 I could be wrong here, but from what you imply, I hope someday mainstream psychiatry will appreciate your efforts are valid and health focused, even if they don't quite get it.
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@Marlowe said
" I hope someday mainstream psychiatry will appreciate your efforts are valid and health focused, even if they don't quite get it."
I think this is what Israel Regardie hoped for as well and I recall him calling on future generations of practitioners to go into this professional field. As far as I understand and have read, the "magicians" of old were the psychologists of their day. Just briefly scratching the work of Carl Jung has solidified to me that there is value in pursuing this line of thought. My conclusion as of now is "we" as people have a much greater effect than we think on our environment and life around us.
One of the best pieces of advice I've heard echoed here on the forum and elsewhere is to do away with fear and when things get rough to practice a bit of aloofness to the situation. "Yeah, that's a scary image or a suprising image, but so what...lets see what else is going on" or perhaps "Why is this 'scary' or why is this popping up right now?" In magickal practice my results are on a lower spectrum then what some describe as far as their interactions with images, beings, etc. on other planes. However, I've had some other intense experiences where I know that "taking myself out of a situation" has helped (while still being in it of course - most of the time easier said than done!).
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This whole thing was kickstarted by my reading about Israel Regardie's views. I've put together a basic magical library, which includes his "Tree of Life" and "Middle Pillar" tomes. I've had to focus on exam work lately, actually in psychotherapy as it happens. Although psychotherapy is the closest field of mental health work to magic, sitting exams means I couldn't allow too much lateral or left of field thinking. As of tomorrow, I can sit down and read for pleasure and Regardie will be a primary choice.
I heartily agree with your idea of aloofness. Some of my workplace encounters are very concrete in terms of dangerousness, but I have a good idea of when to confront and when to avoid. Unfortunately, I'm not in a place where I can avoid said encounters permanently. Your questions are very valid - sometimes for self-preservation and sometimes for planning. Knowledge is power as shown by my knowing enough to run very real risks on a material level but find non-material beings more worrying to me because I'm more likely to be out of my depth.
Jung, hoped for the same thing as Regardie. I started reading Jung many years ago and got along fine with his psychoanalytic and therapeutic concepts, though again, traditional Jungian psychoanalysis is quite ritualized and 'far out' compared to, say, contemporary Lacanian or Kleinian schools. Works like Aion and Mysterium Coniunctionis are so deeply laden with neologisms and magical sounding phrases that I'd rather read Regardie first.
Then again... "It is not in the least astonishing that numinous experiences should occur in the course of psychological treatment and that they may even be expected with some regularity, for they also occur very frequently in exceptional psychic states that are not treated and may even cause them. They do not belong exclusively to the domain of psychopathology and can be observed in normal people as well. Naturally, modern ignorance of and prejudice against intimate psychic experiences dismiss them as psychic anomalies and put them in psychiatric pigeon-holes without the least attempt to understand them." Jung, 1963 Mysterium Coniunctionis p547
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Marlowe, thank you spelling all that out. I agree wholeheartedly.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738102/1heih.jpg
I must admit, I think Jung may be just a touch more my spiritual father than Crowley. And I don't say that lightly.
The Master Therion's work is a masterpiece involving the whole of his life and soul. For some reason, however, I still feel I stand just a touch aloof in the good doctor's corner. That's where I go to find my objectivity again.
But... I'm not always objective. It gets so simultaneously tense and boring. lol..
That's how it is for me, anyways.
Peace.
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" "It is not in the least astonishing that numinous experiences should occur in the course of psychological treatment and that they may even be expected with some regularity, for they also occur very frequently in exceptional psychic states that are not treated and may even cause them. They do not belong exclusively to the domain of psychopathology and can be observed in normal people as well. Naturally, modern ignorance of and prejudice against intimate psychic experiences dismiss them as psychic anomalies and put them in psychiatric pigeon-holes without the least attempt to understand them." Jung, 1963 Mysterium Coniunctionis p547
"That'll preach...! lol..
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@Aegis55 said
"
"I work in psychiatry and I always stress to patients that overcoming an illness and the increased understanding that results are not the same as being suitably trained or 'enlightened' for want of a better word. People learn lots of good things about themselves while recovering, but some experience a temptation to 'free the others' as you put it, by immediately becoming self-appointed counselors. Whatever their potential, I wouldn't call someone's recovery complete until they address that notion."My apologies. This is a hot button for me. But no one is talking about psychiatric patients currently.
We are talking about normal individuals having normal enlightenment experiences.
That some call them abnormal and try to prevent! prevent! prevent! is the very heart of the problem.
Your thoughts?"
Just to make it more clear, he wasn't speaking about enlightenment, but being suitably trained to help others or 'enlightened' as to how one can help others with psychiatric conditions.