Liber Al Cipher 666 Tablet / English Qabalah

Jason R

TABULATION 1.

Adding these sheets as we would a mathematical table we get this number arrangement:

These numerical tables are not the Tablet itself; it is simply a mathematical skeleton that shows the underlying structure. By adding these numbers together various ways, we bring to light hidden structures and functions of the Tablet. Here are a few highlighted aspects of this Tabulation result:

**Total number of squares: 169 (Middle pillar minus Malkuth)

Lowest number: 13 "Achad"

Central number: 25 (25th path, also ChIVA "Beast", also Pentagram)

Highest number: 37 "Behold!", and "Man's Crown"

Notice the strange zigzagging of the numbers, winding from "right to left and top to bottom."

We can divide the Tablet up into five divisions: 4 quarters of 36, and a central cross of 25.

At the ends of the cross are the numbers 19 and 31. All four corners added total 56.

ENUMERATION METHOD 2.**

The second is tricky.

This method was found by the strange mirroring of the "line drawn" (left to right and bottom to top), and the possibility of the cross within the drawn symbol of the "circle squared" clue pointing to four reflected sides. The idea is to take the original graph arrangement and counterbalance it with a hidden mirrored graph exactly opposite. We simple reflect each side of the graph and reverse it. This means that the cards going right to left along the top of the graph, travel left to right along the bottom. The same for both sides, simple reverse directions for the left side on the right. The whole process resembles the familiar grade structure of 1=10 etc. The final step is to reduce all the card numbers, so that for example 25 = 7, 10 = 1 etc. We then add every sides number for every square. The results are striking!

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This enumeration gives us a definite division of its parts by the numerical results that follow. First notice how it naturally divides itself by the horizontal arm cutting across with the odd arrangement of three 5's and seven 14's. We can also see a clear pattern for what would be four solar quadrants (36 squares each, the number of squares in the magic square of the Sun). Here's the numerical breakdown:

14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111
14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111
14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111
14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111
14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111
14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111

(Interesting side note; the "line drawn" key falls across 3 columns of the graph drawn on the actual ms page, and 6 rows going down. That could be seen as "36". Either way, the line drawn figure could be said to go diagonally touching 6 squares going down. If taking into account the squares of the drawn graph on the page that marks out 36 squares. If we apply the diagonal line to this above quadrant it totals 111.)

Total of above tablet 666

**6 × 111= 666. This is the mathematical expression of Aum Ha, which is called the "Seal of the Child."

The central crosses horizontal arm = 128
vertical arm = 290

Total for both arms of central cross 418.

All four corners added (14x4) 56.

Central number is 14, and there are 14 letters in "Do what thou wilt."

**All numbers reduce to 5. Heh = Behold!, also "The Star" **

Taken as all reducing to 5, we get for every row and column 13 × 5 = 65 the HGA, and also symbolic of the Palace, hence 13 x 5 = One Palace.

I:51 "There are four gates to one palace; the floor of that palace is silver and gold; lapis lazuli & jasper are there; and all rare scents; jasmine & rose, and the emblems of death. Let him enter in turn or at once the four gates; let him stand on the floor of the palace. Will he not sink? Amn. Ho! warrior, if thy servant sink? But there are means and means. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me."

This Tablet above has "four gates"; being four solar gates, each totalling 666 in a square of 36. This is the Secret House, a temple of the Sun. We can now also look again at verse III:49:

** III:49. "I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men." **

Also we can appreciate the verse:

I:78 "Lift up thyself! for there is none like unto thee among men or among Gods! Lift up thyself, o my prophet, thy stature shall surpass the stars. They shall worship thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man; and the name of thy house 418."

Pretty coincidental we arrive at a Tablet "foursquare" 666, and a cross bearing 418. It is definitely mystic, and wonderfull (wonder filled?). The operation of this shall unite the 5 & 6, surpassing the "stars". We could say the 5's found are "stars" & Nuit says "invoke me under the stars".

I believe the reason for this striking result is that we reduced, and I believe the reducing of the Trump numbers are to be the new values of the English letters. I want to add that this mirrored arrangement is NOT the normal pattern of the Tablet. The first enumeration is the one kept for generating the end result, which is an Enochian-style Tablet, similar to an Enochian Elemental Watchtower. This mirrored version is simply a shadow confirmation of the value for the English, acting as the "second half" of the equation; the second part of the two systems revealed.

DIVISION HITHER HOMEWARD

If you haven't already figured out the overall scheme and where this is going (the life of its own), let me fill in the picture. We can easily take this skeleton described by these numbers and by using it as a generic base structure of the Enochian system, assemble a new Thelemic system. We can use the first part of the "equation", the simple "right to left and top to bottom" arrangement of the Tarot and blend them into the squares, and apply elemental arrangements to the squares. The familiar truncated pyramids of the Enochian then arise, so that for example the central squares attributes would be:

The Lover's & The Sun card in Spirit of Spirit. Like the Enochian, the central cross becomes the "floor" of the palace, and corresponds to the element of Spirit. This Central "Tablet of Union", so to speak, is composed of 25 squares. This is the path we stand upon when performing the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, or the Star Ruby (25). The Hebrew letters of these two cards are Zain and Resh, respectively and yield 207* AVR *"Light" and *VAR *"War". These two cards are at the very central position of the Tablet, and thus are at the halves, the Twin Warriors about the pillars of the world (elemental quadrants).

I would also suggest you read verse III:37 in connection with this idea of an Enochian-style system, as this *"song" *most likely would be akin to the Enochian *"call". *

II:37 "I adore thee in the song --- I the Lord of Thebes, and I The inspired forth-speaker of Mentu; For me unveiled the veiled sky, The self-slain Ankh-af-na-khonsu Whose words are truth. I invoke, I greet Thy presence, O Ra-Hoor-Khuit!"

(Is this the "raise the spell of Ra-Hoor-Khuit" mentioned in verse III:2, regarding Abrahadabra and "division hither homeward"? Note the verse number is 37, reverse of III:73 where it talks about the "sheets".)

&

III:38 "So that thy light is in me; & its red flame is as a sword in my hand to push thy order. There is a secret door that I shall make to establish thy way in all the quarters, (these are the adorations, as thou hast written), as it is said:"

This sword is Zain, the Light is 207, as the result of Resh and the Warrior twins etc. The *"secret door" to a "house" *(palace), the palace of *"four gates" which is a "foursquare word", *the *"blasphemy" *against all gods if men (foursquare 666, which to gods of men is the number of their "Devil").

The very first set of verses of the third chapter seem to directly describe a method of travelling into the Enochian-style squares of this Tablet.

**III:4 "Choose ye an island!" **

These squares turned into truncated pyramids look an awful lot like islands!

III:5 "Fortify it!"

Concentrate upon it, or construct the meditational tool to represent your square.

III:6 "Dung it about with enginery of war!"

AVR = "light", VAR ="war". Travel into it - and deal with the ordeals of it.

Could this process be the "war-engine"?

DIVISION HITHER HOMEWARD

The last of the clues given along with the "line drawn" was Abrahadabra. There was more to this clue I didn't reveal, and points to the final aspect of this Tablets operation; the letters upon its squares used to generate various names. This is accomplished through the use of the letters of Abrahadabra. It is broken up into its component parts (division hither homeward/spelling is defunct) and placed upon it.

I am not going into those aspect yet. But this is enough to allow one to see how it all fits together.

**THE ENGLISH QABALAH

OBTAINING THE ORDER + VALUE**

Jim also mentions in his commentary, about* "obtaining the order & value of the English Alphabet".* Is it a stretch to say we should do the same thing with the English already done with the Hebrew; attribute them to the Tarot? Could the word* "new", for "new symbols"* be an obvious hint for this? I think yes! The four extra letters of the English are then (as the circle squared in its failure suggests) attributed to the four elemental suits of the minor cards, the four base elements.

I believe possibly an answer to an intended English Qabalah for all is to be found concealed cleverly, in the original manuscript. This I feel is the reason for the mentioning of the "chance shape" of the letters etc. Hidden in verse II:55 is a subtle clue.

II:55 "Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto."

Again, I would like to quote Jim Eshelman concerning this from his commentary:

**"This verse seems to ordain a uniquely English Qabalah. There have been many theories on this, including a couple of my own. I am not thoroughly satisfied with any of it.

Let us analyze the verse carefully to see exactly what we know and what we do not.

Context: The preceding verse (II:54) made reference to the 'style' and 'value' of 'the letters' of this Book. This seems to have stirred a question in AC’s mind about what the 'value' might be. This present v. 55 seems to be a brief digression to address that question.

'Thou.' Singular. It seems to refer to AC uniquely, especially in context of the surrounding verse.

'shalt.' Although this could be a command, it could also be a prophesy: 'It will happen.' If so, it seems to have been a prophesy failed. (AC’s brief attempt to relate the letters to the trigrams of Liber 27 was later abandoned by him.) In the absence of any clear discovery by him, we certainly are warranted to proceed ourselves, and to seek out this solution.

'obtain.' This is a critical word. The solution is something he did not already have. It is definitely an acquisition. (There is also an obscure and mostly antiquated use of 'obtain' to mean 'attain to' or 'succeed;' this should be kept in mind for future investigation.)

'order & value.' These are the key words of the sentence, and deserve close scrutiny. Only 'value' has gotten adequate attention. But let us not miss the fact that AC was told to 'obtain the order.... of the English Alphabet'! Now, normally we assume we know the order of the English Alphabet. This in itself suggests very strongly that the order is not the same as that of the normal alphabet."**

Here is the critical thing Jim missed, that we are to attribute these to "new symbols", to me an obvious play on words "new" sounds exactly like "Nu" of which she has plenty of symbols in her "book". As I said before, would it not be logical to attribute the Tarot to the English? If so, would not these Trump numbers be easy to see as their new* "order"? After all these "new symbols"* are already ordered for us!

Jim continues here discussing the often-turned-to English Simplex.

**"The method of English Qabalah which I personally find most interesting is the English Simplex — simply valuing the 26 letters from 1 to 26 in sequence. It parallels the Latin system, and is the key to Western numerology of the more popular (and adequately proven) kind.

Admittedly, since it uses the natural 'order' of the English letters, it would seem not to be that system to which this verse refers. Nonetheless, it produces one startling solution that must be recorded here: The present verse is the 121st verse in The Book of the Law; and, by English Simplex, “order & value” = 60 & 61 = 121!

Could the 'new' in 'new symbols' be a clue confirming this, since N-E-W are three '5' letters — 5, 14, 23 — down the exact middle of the English enumeration table? Is this a clue to this verse 55?"**

Notice he realized that it doesn't solve* "obtaining"* a new "order" however. This is vital because the reason this is confusing is that the order 1,2,3,4 etc., is NOT the order of the Tarot! The order of the Tarot starts with 0.

I:46 "Nothing is a secret key of this law. Sixty-one the Jews call it; I call it eight, eighty, four hundred & eighteen."

**"Nothing" **is "A" secret KEY of this law. A is not 1, as it is in our normal sequence, but ordered according to that of the Tarot becoming 0. This then of course brings us to the next verse that makes more sense:

I:47 "But they have the half: unite by thine art so that all disappear."

Here* "the half"* is the Tarot with its Hebrew letters already attributed, and we are to include the English in this already-existing scheme.

I:48 "My prophet is a fool with his one, one, one; are not they the Ox, and none by the Book?"

Again it hints at *"A" *being not "one", but 0. It suggests that the first card is Aleph, but more importantly its the fool, and even more importantly- according to the "Book" its 0! This is important, it is making the assertion that the Trump numbers are in themselves more vital than the value of the Hebrew letter itself!

This brings me to the final point, which is that the* "order" of the Trumps, the Trump numbers themselves become the basis of the value for English. In the original manuscript the symbol of the ampersand between the words "order & value" *is not the usual, but *"in the original writing of the Beast" it is more like an addition sign. The verse could be said to say, "obtain the order and reduce for the value." *The Trump numbers become the value of the English Alphabet once we reduce them.

The resulting Qabalah resembles the Sanskrit model suggested by Crowley. In Crowley's Sanskrit-English Qabalah based on Ka-Ta-Pa-Ya-Dhi, the letter "A" has no value. In addition all the letters have single-digit values. However that's about the extent of their similarities, yet what is interesting is the 0 value for "A".

Here is a simple breakdown of the values for the English Alphabet. These are based on the number sequence starting, as the Tarot, with a 0, and reducing. Notice the central column says "A Fox".

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Love is the law, love under Will.

Edward Mason

Dara 93,

"18 + 22 = 36
18 + 26 = 40"

???? 'Splain, please.

93 93/93,
EM

Takamba

18+22=40
18+26=44

Jason R

ENGLISH QABALAH
Order: Eng. Heb. Greek

A = 0 Aleph = 1. Alpha = 1
B = 1,2. Beth = 2. Beta = 2
C = 2,4 Gimel = 3. Gamma = 3
D = 3,6 Daleth = 4. Delta = 4
E = 4,8. Tzaddi = 90. Epsilon = 5
F = 5,10. Vav = 6. Stau = 6
G = 6,12. Zain = 7. Zeta = 7
H = 7,14. Cheth = 8. Eta = 8
I = 8,16. Teth = 9. Theta = 9
J = 9,18. Yod = 10. Iota = 10
K = 1,2. Kaph = 20. Kappa = 20
L = 2,4. Lamed = 30. Lambda = 30
M = 3,6. Mem = 40. Mu = 40
N = 4,8. Nun = 50. Nu = 50
O = 5,10. Samekh = 60. Xi = 60
P = 6,12. Ayin = 70. Omicron = 70
Q = 7,14. Peh = 80. Pi = 80
R = 8,16. Heh = 5. Koppa = 90
S = 9,18. Qoph = 100. Rho = 100
T = 1,2. Resh = 200. Sigma = 200
U = 2,4. Shin = 300. Tau = 300
V = 3,6. Tau = 400. Upsilon = 400
W = 4,8. Kaph final 500. Phi = 500
X = 5,10. Mem final 600. Chi = 600
Y = 6,12. Nun final 700. Psi = 700
Z = 7,14. Peh final 800. Omega = 800

The second number for the English value is at this point optional. I believe the uppercase letters, or capitals are macrocosmic, and the lowercase are microcosmic. The lowercase are "doubled" in value, and left unreduced. However I cant justify this idea on a solid reason, other than it simply yields significant results. I turn to in desperation "success is thy proof". It seems to work, however I do have a few ideas in the works. So for now simply decide for yourself, but it really doesn't change too much.

Here are some of the results of using this system:

ABRAHADABRA = 28
Abrahadabra (using lowercase) = 56
HAD = 10
Had = 13
Nu = 8
NU = 6
order = 56
value = 22
"order & value" = 78 (Tarot)
Star = 27
STAR = 18
AL = 2 (A = 0 L = 2 = 0=2)
LAW = 6
PAN = 10
TO ME = 13
BABALON = 13
KEY = 11
NOT = 11
LOVE = 14
PALACE = 14
N.O.X. = 14
BEAST = 15
BEHOLD! = 22
WXYZ = 22
Palace = 22
AIWASS = 30 (Lamed "L")
SECRET = 28
Will = 28
set = 28
love = 28
HORUS = 31

ABRAHADABRA REVISED

If we take the Hebrew letters that correspond to the English letters of Abrahadabra we get:

ABRAHADABRA = (Heb.) ABHAChADABHA = 31

A. Aleph Fool
B. Beth. Magus
H. Heh. Star
Ch. Cheth. Chariot
D. Daleth Empress

A new word emerges out of Abrahadabra, one that looks and sounds a bit like the old "Abracadabra";
and totals totals to 31! Its interesting to note also that the Tzaddi / Heh switch comes into play with this! Could this be a hidden reason for the switch?

IS GOD TO LIVE IN A DOG?

There is a further aspect of this proposed Qabalah, and a definite further connection to the Tablet; particularly the 2nd enumeration that gives us the 666 & 418. There are 3 numbers that repeat which generate these two important numbers: 5,14,23.

If we take these as the "order" numbers of the English letters (of which they are a product of), we get three English letters:

F
O
X

These three numbers bring up the three letters that reduce to 5; and create the word "Fox". If we cross reference these letters (or order numbers) to the corresponding Hebrew or Greek, we get:

F. Vav 6. Stau 6
O. Samekh 60. Xi 60
X Men final 600. Chi = 600

Both of these total to 666. The image of a Fox has often been associated with the symbology of "the Devil". Adding these three numbers together we get 42, reduces to 6. All reduced to 5 = 15, the number the Devil Trump.

The above then demonstrates a significant connection and coincedence that seems to be within the realm of Aiwass. We could say that this Tablet unites all these alphabets, and more importantly 666, and the related ideas of Thelema within one system. It would appear all this was always hidden within the structure of the Tarot. Remember we arrive at all this relatively easily; by simply arranging the natural order of numbers (Trump numbers) 0 through 25, without too much manipulation. The two main actions being folding them, and reducing. Yes, we do reduce and then "mirror" these numbers, but what are the chances this would produce openly - the two great number's of the Book of the Law? Not only produce these numbers, but in a manner that is itself significant (6x111 being Aum Ha), as well as 666 being foursquare in divisions pertinent to the Sun (36)? Then, of course, we have these three numbers repeated 5,14,23 that generate FOX that corresponds across to both Hebrew and Greek as 666?

Last, if you truly examine this "stele 666" the Tablet producing 666 & 418, it seems to draw with the numbers a giant "H", or even an "X".

III:73 "Paste the sheets from right to left and top to bottom; then behold!" Behold = Heh = H.

Jason R

Dar 93!

Thanks for coming to check it out! Yes, I know I'm not a scholar lol, I do sometimes stumple around writing wise. My apologies for any bad form!

I THINK I follow you in your suggestions. I need to look at it carefully and scribble a bit. It is interesting about the missing paths.

Although this system is based upon the paths (cards) I have not delved too deeply into the Tree of Life aspect, and for example, how this works regarding it. I think it be very interesting to examine the various blendings of these paths and what that looks like etc.

As I said before, I'm slow! I really have to sit and concentrate and mull it over for a while before I get something out of it.

I appreciate any feedback, so thank you!

93 93/93

Jason R

Here is a simplified breakdown:

Take the 22 Trumps divided into macrocosm & microcosm; pasting right to left & top to bottom: (line drawn step)

___12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

Attribute the English to these "sheets" generating 26 to this Tarot order; they become 13x13:(circle squared step)

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(extra four are the base elements/suits)

Add above "right to left and top to bottom" to generate Tablet mixing 5&6 symbolically. Creates 169 squared tablet.(and Abrahadabra step)

Done.

This first tabulation is all we need to construct the Thelemic Tablet. It gives us two Tarot attributes for each square, and the division of cross & 4 solar quarters; gives each mixed elemental attributes.

I believe this could be another meaning for the "first half of the equation".

Jason R

Another thought upon the word "paste", and of this whole scheme is that of sex magick.

Why "paste"? Paste is suggestive of semen, the white milky substance that unites or blends two halves. The Tablet blends, adheres these pages together in a symbolic marriage, (think Temperance/"Art") Paste also suggests the alchemical universal solvent of Art. It also hints at art, and creativity, something we use mostly with art on projects. So the use of the word "paste" is significant because it gives us the idea of a process involving addition in a creative and new way, something simple, and involving art (Tarot). The words "paste the sheets" also has a rather sexual connotation as well. "Bed in working" takes on new meaning, in terms of this whole idea; as does "unite by thine art".

The whole Tablet, with each square uniting two cards, is sexual. It is a joining of these symbols; the whole Temple is an orgy!

It is well known that there are sexual techniques using the Enochian system, why should this be any different? It should be even more expected in this case! No doubt, this new Thelemic style Enochian system employs sex magic.

Jason R

Although there is a lot I feel sure about with this theory; there still are areas - subjects im not sure about as well.

Of course as I learn, I try to use that knowledge to help solve these remaining questions. However, your welcome to try and solve them as well. Here they are:

IF we take Abrahadabra as using the English letters and cross reference them to the Hebrew connected through the Trumps; can we say:

A = 0 Fool - Aleph 1 = Spirit
B = 1 Magus - Beth 2 = Air
R =17 Star - Heh 5 = Fire
H = 7 Chariot - Cheth 8 = Water
D = 3 Empress - Daleth 4 = Earth

(Interesting side note. Card numbers of these 5 = 28, same as reduced Eng. for whole word. Heb. total 20.)

This is my guess at elemental attributions for these 5 diverse letters of the Word.

What do you think?

I believe these four solar gates are to be made into four seperate (space marks?) Tablets. The central cross, as done in the regular Enochian system is then turned into a Tablet of Union, to be placed upon the altar. However, it is possible this is ONE whole Tablet to be set up in the East, as our "Kiblah", perhaps a symbolic Boelskin? It does after all symbolically represent a "house", & has the "name" (cross) 418.

Would it be "one" or "many"?

(Of course, giving your opinion is simply assuming hypothetically this whole theory is correct.)

I still havent went into the subject of the letters upon the squares of this Tablet. I will if there is truly an interest, but so far I havent seen too much of a responce. I feel reluctant to simply waste my time with all these details if theres no interest.

Anyway, I admire many of you on this forum, and would appreciate any honest feedback. If for example, you find any aspect of my theory in error, or based on wrong information etc., or may be simply misguided in some way, please feel free to point it out! If this IS a house of cards, built on a shaky foundation, I would seriously appreciate the constructive criticism.

I realize the negative knee jerk reaction to any would be "cipher solution" etc. It does seem to be a Thelemic habit, every Thelemite has a possible theory it seems! But, this is a way we learn too, and having that objectivity is a great tool to realize weakness/strengths.

My arguement is how many theories can so quickly produce such well known, clear-cut recognizable numbers as 666 & 418? In such an additional qabalistically significant manner - such as 111 x 6? This also creates a workable system, using TWO of the subjects closely related to Liber Legis. It brings so many aspects together into a coherent, easy to understand whole. These are the reasons I feel it has merit.

I have seen interesting patterns found, even generated out of every day gibberish (in a round about, haphazzard fashion), but I challenge anyone to show a way to generate these two great Thelemic numbers like this theory can!

It seems every time I post this, everyone clams up lol! I saw plenty give Dar some advice, and or criticism; id love some of that feedback too. Thanks again!

93 93/93

Bereshith

I like the standards you set at the beginning. They attempt to confine the incredible creative and associative ability of the unconscious mind to the end result you seek.

Once we get to the elaboration of the mathmatical tables, you end up making choices about how to combine, reduce, mirror, etc. This is where subjectivity creeps in. For instance, the standard method of creating a table leaves the original row and column intact. It doesn't change them. Horizontally, the 0-13, and vertically, the 13-25 would remain in place. The manipulation of the original row and column, then their reduction and mirroring is ...a bit of mental art. And that's where it becomes subjective and unconfirmable.

I am becoming more and more convinced that each of these solutions, and the verses that seem to encourage one to go through such manipulations, functions more like a Rorschach Test than anything else.

As the unconscious mind elaborates on the original premise, these subjetive artistic decisions are shaped by all the other impressions about ourselves, our lives, and occult "doctrine" that we have deeply impressed upon our own unconscious. As the artistic decisions occur, what we tend to see is a reflection of the unconscious contents of the qabalistic artist. In short, it reveals more about what* we believe and think *about ourselves, our lives, and occult "doctrine" than anything else.

Yours tends to bend back toward confirmation of the Law and of the importance of 666.

It is no small accomplishment for you, or anyone else for that matter, to achieve this experience of the incredible possibilities of your internal genius. For many, it seems to represent their first full encounter with the depth and vast possibilities of their own unconscious powers and confirms the possibility of information coming to them seemingly from outside themselves.

However, as I said, the information generated generally seems to reflect much more of what is going on in the psychological depths of an individual than anything that could be considered absolute, universal, or objective truth.

Jason R

@Bereshith said

"I like the standards you set at the beginning. They attempt to confine the incredible creative and associative ability of the unconscious mind to the end result you seek.

Once we get to the elaboration of the mathmatical tables, you end up making choices about how to combine, reduce, mirror, etc. This is where subjectivity creeps in. For instance, the standard method of creating a table leaves the original row and column intact. It doesn't change them. Horizontally, the 0-13, and vertically, the 13-25 would remain in place. The manipulation of the original row and column, then their reduction and mirroring is ...a bit of mental art. And that's where it becomes subjective and unconfirmable.

I am becoming more and more convinced that each of these solutions, and the verses that seem to encourage one to go through such manipulations, functions more like a Rorschach Test than anything else.

As the unconscious mind elaborates on the original premise, these subjetive artistic decisions are shaped by all the other impressions about ourselves, our lives, and occult "doctrine" that we have deeply impressed upon our own unconscious. As the artistic decisions occur, what we tend to see is a reflection of the unconscious contents of the qabalistic artist. In short, it reveals more about what* we believe and think *about ourselves, our lives, and occult "doctrine" than anything else.

Yours tends to bend back toward confirmation of the Law and of the importance of 666.

It is no small accomplishment for you, or anyone else for that matter, to achieve this experience of the incredible possibilities of your internal genius. For many, it seems to represent their first full encounter with the depth and vast possibilities of their own unconscious powers and confirms the possibility of information coming to them seemingly from outside themselves.

However, as I said, the information generated generally seems to reflect much more of what is going on in the psychological depths of an individual than anything that could be considered absolute, universal, or objective truth."

93 Bereshith,

Thank you for your help and input! Very true! I agree of course we have an unconcious process that allows us to unlock these sorts of fancy solutions, however if they are products that have worth or objective use (i.e. Liber Tav) dont they justify themselves?

I hardly see "justification" for Liber Tavs format, (in terms of pure mechanics) bieng any more pertinent than this one. I guess what Im saying is, arent ALL "solutions" a product of these same things your citing anyway? What is the process or a solution example that wouldnt? Isnt our intuitition or higher selves directing us? "Reason is a lue" etc., I think the real measure is the validity of the result.

I dont know if this matters, but the only enumeration required is the first which does stay in place. That is 0 through 12 (not 13) & 13 down 25. The "mirrored" part is, I believe an extra hidden confirnation for the reduced being the "values". I disagree it is easy to arrive at such numbers in such a clear significant way. Also, the mirrored trick, I believed is a "key" to confirm by these recognizable numbers the inherent divisions. How do we know its not just "me"? I think THAT could be argued that the result is alone its objective justification.

666 "foursquare"? 418 in a cross? Deriving 666 by 6 lines of 111? 666 being a total of a 36 square quater? All from mirroring and reducing?

Again, your obviously an intelligent man, and I respect your feedback. I will look into what you say however. Just pointing out what MY mind argues. I want to make sure I understand what your saying, and "get it".

93 93/93

Bereshith

@Daegal said

"93 Bereshith,

Thank you for your help and input! Very true! I agree of course we have an unconcious process that allows us to unlock these sorts of fancy solutions, however if they are products that have worth or objective use (i.e. Liber Tav) dont they justify themselves? "

Yes, they justify themselves if the product is of practical use and does not depend on others being required to accept the subjective choices of the process of discovery. Liber Tav creates a tarot layout that has great practical applications for meditation on the interconnectedness of the tarot, whether or not its source was Liber AL. Paul Foster Case presents a similar layout (though reversed - which I'm not sure matters since the layout is symmetrical) and does not credit any authority for its production other than tradition (that I recall).

"I hardly see "justification" for Liber Tavs format, (in terms of pure mechanics) thann this one. "

What meditation or practical application to magic does it provide for others that is not required to be based in acceptance of the method of its discovery?

"I guess what Im saying is, arent ALL "solutions" a product of these same things your citing anyway? "

Absolutely.

"What is the process or a solution example that wouldnt?"

It would have to achieve the solution by methods that do not require the unquestioning acceptance of another individual's subjective leaps of intuition and association.

"I dont know if this matters, but the only enumeration required is the first which does stay in place. That is 0 through 12 (not 13) & 13 down 25. The "mirrored" part is, I believe an extra hidden confirnation for the reduced being the "values". I disagree it is easy to arrive at such numbers in such a clear significant way. "

I didn't say it was easy. I said it was an activation of, and an accomplishment of, your unconscious genius. I said it was no small accomplishment to activate it or receive its creative response.

"666 "foursquare"? 418 in a cross? Deriving 666 by 6 lines of 111? 666 being a total of a 36 square quater? All from mirroring and reducing?"

Yes, but with no* logical *justification for the mirroring and reducing except that it ends up resulting in such things. That your mind discovered this is a work of art and genius. Does that seem so small to you? Must it be objectively confirmable by others for it to be a meaningful and significant demonstration of your genius by you, for you? It's only when we start claiming that our solution is obvious, final, and authoritative for everyone that it becomes necessary to apply the rules of rational methodology and objectivity. If we make no such claims, then it still remains that wonderful, mysterious interaction and demonstration of your own genius by you, for you.

"Again, your obviously an intelligent man, and I respect your feedback. I will look into what you say however. Just pointing out wgat MY mind argues.

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Absolutely understandable.

Love under Will.

Jason R

Aha! I get it! Ok, thank you Bereshith. I think I finally understand! Your smarter than the average bear I see lol.

Ok, taking it now as a purely personal system, could you give me your opinion on my attributions of elements to the 5 letters of Abrahadabra? IF going by my idea of the cards shown? Id appreciate any advice!

Thank you!

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Jason R

Bereshith! One last question that came to me! A possible arguement; could we be throwing the perverbial baby out with the bathwater? Assuming personal, unjustified, or erroneous ideas lead to a valid result, does that really matter?

Would Crowley have thrown out the "AL" key had Achad said he arrived at it by playing scrabble?

How can anyone legitamately use these "keys" (clues) such as the "line drawn" and "circle squared" by NOT using intuitive interpretation with a solution? Their symbols after all, meant to provoke inspiration. We may all react or think of different ideas based on them.

Maybe these words, chance shapes, drawn symbols, and "the number & the words" could be meant to "strangely" or uniquely inspire a particular individual? Are we perhaps putting to much importance on HOW we arrive at a solution, rather than that solutions validity itself?

After all, maybe that is what "success is thy proof" means? Otherwise, we may make the reverse mistake, taking a wrong solution as having objective truth based on a convincing origin.

I dont know, just a thought. Still I get your points, and appreciate your thoughts.

Love under will

Bereshith

Well, it's a simplified analogy, but if a person came to you and said "Eureka! I've got it! 4+55=666!" how would you react?

Jason R

@Bereshith said

"Well, it's a simplified analogy, but if a person came to you and said "Eureka! I've got it! 4+55=666!" how would you react?"

Your missing my point. Sorry I didnt make it more clear.

Your mistaking an illogical process or method for arriving at a result. Im saying couldnt a verse or symbol inspire an IDEA for a method or process that yields a valid result?

For example, to address your issue with no justification for reducing, and mirroring this graph; could we not allow for "paste the sheets right to left and top to bottom" to mean several things? Or inspire the IDEA of each side "top", reverse "bottom" & "left" to "right" being this mirroring? Taking the meaning as a reversal also?

The "circle squared" inspiring the IDEA for 22 plus 4 = 26 & english? Also the suggesting addition of these four sides, as visually described as a cross? The glyph is interpreted by ME, inspiring a METHOD resulting in a valid solution.

Hope that explains it a bit better. My apologies for not being very articulate! Lol

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Bereshith

@Bereshith said

"Yes, they justify themselves if the product is of practical use and does not depend on others being required to accept the subjective choices of the process of discovery."

Jason R

@Bereshith said

"
@Bereshith said
"Yes, they justify themselves if the product is of practical use and does not depend on others being required to accept the subjective choices of the process of discovery."
"

Wait a minute. This isnt making much sense to me now.

How can we exclude a solution simply because others would be required to accept the subjective choices of its originator?

If thats the criteria, it would basically be impossible for any solution to meet the requirement. That may be possible in fields such as science etc., but magick is an art as well, very subjective material no?

These symbols we leap from making subjective choices can inspire specific process that themselves are justified.

Liber Legis is of course very personal, individual, how the verses strike me - what they inspire is personal. You dont have to understand, nor agree how one arrives at a particular summit, but if he end up at that summit another may understand & verify his position.

I can not dictate HOW I believe a verse or symbol should move you, or inspire you. Nor can I dictate the validity of your particular inspiration, regardless if "correct" or not. One may get a vision of Nuit from a symbol of Hadit, but if the vision itself is of universal worth and use, does it matter?

Perhaps these subjective choices are the subjective "keys" that open up meaning for an individual leading to a very objective solution.

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Jason R

Subjective choices:

A. Taking the "sheets" to be the Tarot.

Someone has to make a subjective choice to what these "sheets" are. How can anyone avoid this? Besides, my idea is the same as others far greater than myself in knowledge.

B. Taking "right to left and top to bottom" as outline of a graph. How is that unreasonable, if not perfectly logical?

C. Interpreting the SYMBOL of a circle with a cross inside as ROTA (Tarot 22), & 4 elements. Also it inspiring the idea of adding (even reducing) the "circle" of cards.

D. Why couldnt it be taken as legitimate to have "Abrahadabra" in this context suggest uniting the 5 & 6 divisions of these cards or "circle squared"?

C. Following logically the graph outline suggested, why is it unjustified to add these cards?

D. Why isnt it enough justification to reduce and mirror this graph outline simply because all the above led me to try? Or that the words "right to left and top to bottom" gave ME a further idea of reflecting each side? Or the word "behold" to investigate?

How are the above personal inspirations that I derived from the "keys" given (and for a reason) reason to reject the results I obtain, that further fit verses? I.e. "foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of the man (666), and the name of thy house 418".

A Tablet foursquare 666, and cross 418, inspired BY "keys" given in Liber Al, unjustified because it would ask others to accept HOW I came to those inpirations for my methods?

Doesnt make sense, and precludes many others ideas arrived at the same way as well. Magick IS subjective.

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Bereshith

"How can we exclude a solution simply because others would be required to accept the subjective choices of its originator?
"

Begs the question of what a solution is.

It's like saying, "How can we exlude a mathematical formula just because it doesn't make any sense unless you're a Christian?"

If I have to be Christian for a mathematical formula to make sense, it isn't a mathematical formula.

If I have to place faith in the person who solved a riddle instead of being able understand it, I have no business giving importance to riddles.

Jason R

@Bereshith said

"
"How can we exclude a solution simply because others would be required to accept the subjective choices of its originator?
"

Begs the question of what a solution is.

It's like saying, "How can we exlude a mathematical formula just because it doesn't make any sense unless you're a Christian?"

If I have to be Christian for a mathematical formula to make sense, it isn't a mathematical formula.

If I have to place faith in the person who solved a riddle instead of being able understand it, I have no business giving importance to riddles."

A solution is of course the answer to a problem. In this case, the answer to the riddles hidden in Liber Al, specifically the secret of the pasting of the sheets, and the English Qabalah. In addition making sense to many other mysterious verses, that point to a hidden answer.

Im not sure I get your analogy, the "mathmatical formula" aka my theory (method), doesnt require a change in belief systems. Your a Thelemite. Im a Thelemite. You understand the fundamental concepts of Qabalah, and Thelemic and magical theory and techniques, as I do, and probably better.

Therefore, this does not require one to abandon "Thelemic" or "magical" reason or points of view etc. But simply to accept the individual inspiration that LED to a process (formula) that further leads to a reasonable answer.

Do you feel, besides the subjective choices, that the system/theory itself is flawed or unworkable somehow? That IT alone, forgetting about HOW it was derived, has no merit or worth? If so, how or what are your reasons?

Otherwise, I am stumped how you justify rejecting ANY solution that is valid, simply based on how particular symbols influenced another.

Your not placing faith in a person. Of course Awaiss etc., works through us, directing us. IF a solution comes, its not from that personality or person, but as you said, thier Higher Genius or HGA, right? Wouldnt ANY solution come from a person? Look at Frater Achad! You accept AL as the universal key to the Book of the Law dont you?

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