LBRP Divine Name Sequence
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"Just to be clear, there is no necessary connection between Thelema and the Lesser Pentagram Rituals. They predate it by a long shot and hold no place in its canon."
I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites. I think it is the duty of thelemites to make all spiritual knowledge available to all people, except where secrecy is warranted because keeping something secret will either help the person (example: initiation rituals) or keep them from harm (example: not teaching powerful rituals to newbies). Now, you are all more thelemic than me, so you're free to disagree and you'll probably be right.
Having magical secrets held by people of a certain level should have died with the old aeon. The Law is for all, and by extension, I think so is all spiritual knowledge. We should want the spiritual evolution of humanity and should turn none away. I don't think there is a single spiritual or magical fact that I wouldn't tell someone, unless it fits either of the two criterion listed above. Now, I don't possess very many magical secrets and I'll be the first to admit that. But I hope that when I do, I'll be willing to pass them on to sincere aspirants.
Again, what I'm saying doesn't apply to Jim, because he is withholding information due to a promise. But, there are many other areas where Jim won't share certain things, saying they are private to TOT. That troubles me, because unless it is either to protect the person or to help him or her, I can't see a reason for it (of course, that doesn't mean such a reason doesn't exist). Why withhold truth that could help the evolution of humanity? And again, how is it different from medieval church leaders concealing things?
I strongly feel that thelemites especially shouldn't keep such magical secrets. Now, Jim publishes A LOT and answers MANY questions, but what is the purpose of certain methods and practices being made available solely to TOT students? Why limit spiritual truth (even the smallest nugget) to a man-made organization? Is it just to keep TOT "special" and desirable? Because if it were all known, TOT wouldn't seem as mysterious and powerful? Again, this whole post needs to be couched in conditional language because it assumes there is no good reason for keeping methods and information secret. Maybe there IS such a reason, but from an outside perspective, it sure wafts of an old-aeon keep-the-knowledge-from-the-profane attitude.
But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity. I'm not suggesting everything needs to be published and open... But when a sincere aspirant shows dedication and searched for hours on end to uncover a fact, why not throw the dog a bone?
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Hmm that does make me think. Is that the reason for some secrets, I wonder? In case they fall into the wrong hands? Mind you, could an organization really adequitely discern the moral quality of an applicant? Especially when the key moral adage is do what thou wilt?
Perhaps it's something like that... But that doesn't really explain concealing methods. For example, I was seeking information on here about how to increase my visual abilities. I was given one method involving colors and Hebrew letters, but I was told that the other methods were secret to the TOT. In a case like that, it seems the other methods are just helpful ways to succeed in a basic magical task. It doesn't seem like some dangerous secret that, if put in the wrong hands, could cause chaos (the bad form of chaos, heh).
I would love to have access to these methods. I struggle a lot with really feeling like I'm doing something when I practice. In a lot of ways, I feel like I'm doing all the right actions, but it feels "pretend" a lot of the time. I could really use some from-thr-ground-up training, and TOT seems to offer that. But I'm so far away from TOT that it will never be possible to capitalize on these training methods. I want magick to really work. I'm sick of feeling like I'm just pretending. And this frustration is only exacerbated by the thought that there is information out there that could help me but is being concerned.
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Yeah. It kinda sucks, but... I don't know what to tell you. I'm in the same boat.
Stick with it.
You program you unconscious mind with the rudiments, and, yes, you use the magic of pretend. But then one day, your unconscious shows you what it can unfold from what you've been giving it. And that's one form of "inner instruction." It's not just all about the self-consciousness and its methods of getting info.
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@Luce said
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I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites."Thelemites keep all sorts of secrets, magic and otherwise. If you think that's unfair then reveal the true name, address, and credit card number of the individual behind the "Luce" mask and maybe we can start a dialogue. This particular topic is just special pleading.
There is no "should" in Do what thou wilt.
Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here.
You've been tossed several very meaty bones in this thread. I know because I'm chewing them over as well. It's your choice what you do with them.
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@Luce said
"But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity."
For many things... this isn't true outside the context of the interconnected system. Many things, in isolation, are useless, but as part of an interconnected system, delivered in a particular sequence in a particular way... they have a different power.
The most obvious example, of course, is the Temple of Thelema initiations ceremonies. To disclose them openly would be to substantially remove their usefulness.
Most knowledge (maybe all knowledge) is completely arbitrary, and only gains value in its particular relationship to other knowledge. (The whole of knowledge is simply a self-sustaining pattern of relationships. Remove a piece from context and it is no longer clear what any of it means.)
It is for the evolution of humanity that I've given more than half my life to creating a single system that can survive me which has the ability to produce this effect for those who pass through it. Meanwhile, we do what we can for those who cannot.
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Thanks for your reply, Jim.
"Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here."
I was aware of the fourth power of the Sphinx as I wrote my post. I decided it didn't provide a complete explanation for this secrecy. Btw, I didn't see myself get "shot down." Try not to turn this into a popularity contest. I'm trying to have a discussion here, in the thread that I started, I might remind you (albeit I'm bitching, I'll give you that). It's really not that off-topic anyway, seeing as the thread is about one specific secret and now I'm talking about secrets in general.
By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused.
"This particular topic is just special pleading."
Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position.
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@Luce said
"By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused."
You might want to go back and read that post again. Jim wasn't telling you what you should or shouldn't do. He was recognizing that you were veering off-course from question to statement to discussion which was taking your thought process dangerously close to something that he would be obligated to delete based on his personal vow. You are free to post whatever you will. He is free to delete it. Fight like brothers. That's Thelema. There is no should.
He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done.
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"This particular topic is just special pleading."Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position."
The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading.
In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all."
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The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading. "Now I'm not entirely sure you know what that term means, but I guess it doesn't matter.
"In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all.""
Touché. That was more of a poetic device than a proof text though. I stand by my statement that Thelema shouldn't conceal spiritual truth unless it's for one of two reasons given above.
"He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done."
I rest my case.
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Don't get stuck in this, man.
Should or should not, it just is.
One of the foremost scholars in the world provides a website for us to come learn what he can tell us for free. Let that be good enough.
He doesn't even know us. But he's tolerated my grumpy ass for years.
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Both of you are misreading my post. I've said time and time again that I don't hold anything at all against Jim for not posting the secret. He promised, and I respect that. I've also made it clear how grateful I am for all the things he does post. Jim has no obligation to share anything. Moreover, I'm a "guest" here in that I'm on the TOT forum without actually being in TOT. I see that as an amazing privledge.
I thought it'd be interesting to segue this thread into a discussion about secret-keeping in general. I wanted to hear what people's thoughts were about it. I'm done complaining and I was curious on the issue. But being met with the same thelemic drivel is definitely off-putting. I'm tired of the many watered-down thought-terminating clichés that plague discussions on Thelema. Thelema literally has its own special class of abused phrases that ought to be blacklisted.
But I guess I'll let this thread die now. If anyone has any thoughts about the reason behind privledged information (besides the two I've mentioned, that Jim echoed) I'd like to hear them. I truly am intellectually curious on the reason that some methods are kept secret, if those methods do not fit the two criterion mentioned already (protecting an adept from harm and withholding an initiation ritual or magical word so it's more powerful later). This isn't me bitching anymore; I'm legitimately interested on this issue, and I think it's related enough to my OP to not be off-topic. But if people are going to interpret everything I say as complaining and ingratitude, I'd rather not hear it.
TL;DL: Everyone, stop implying I'm ungrateful. I am indebted to Jim for his help. I'm interested in continuing a discussion concerning the reason and morality behind magical secret keeping. If no one else is interested (or if the discussion has become too emotional and can't continue healthily) I'll happily let this thread die.
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It's best to start a new thread for a new topic.
That keeps the forum in better shape in general - makes it more functional for research purposes because people can look for discussions in threads that have a relevant name, etc. Otherwise, it's all a mess.
Also this current thread probably will be deleted one of these days soon, and if you start a new subject that, n fact, generates discussion on a different topic, then that would all go into the dump bucket at the same time.
@Luce said
"I'm tired of the many watered-down thought-terminating clichés that plague discussions on Thelema. Thelema literally has its own special class of abused phrases that ought to be blacklisted."
That might make an interesting new thread on its own. Feel free to start one and discuss what you think those phrases are and why they need to go.
"I truly am intellectually curious on the reason that some methods are kept secret, if those methods do not fit the two criterion mentioned already (protecting an adept from harm and withholding an initiation ritual or magical word so it's more powerful later)."
Another related but distinctive reason: Some information is almost certain to be misunderstood most of the time by most people - until they are ready for it. If it were to be simply incomprehensible, that wouldn't be a problem. But, worse, most people are likely to put a wrong interpretation on many things because normal passage through our society hasn't prepared them to think certain thoughts and understand certain things. To put out information that has a high likelihood of outright misleading someone is irresponsible, so some concepts are withheld until someone demonstrates their readiness for them. (Within an initiatic system, the overall structure - when things are done right - is designed to lead people to readiness for certain ideas a little bit before they are given out).
"Everyone, stop implying I'm ungrateful."
I have not perceived you as ungrateful
"I am indebted to Jim for his help. I'm interested in continuing a discussion concerning the reason and morality behind magical secret keeping. If no one else is interested (or if the discussion has become too emotional and can't continue healthily) I'll happily let this thread die."
I haven't seen it getting emotional at all, but it is OT to the present thread.
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I'd be happy to continue a conversation about the relative merits of magical secrets or about what you're misinterpreting as Thelemic clichés, but this isn't the thread for it. If you do want to have that discussion, start a new thread, not in the Qabalah sub-forum, with a title and OP that reflects what you're actually interested in discussing.
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Thanks for the explanation, Jim. That makes sense to me. Kinda like how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I can see that. I wouldn't tell a child how to put keys into the ignition of a car and turn it on... Until I was ready to fully teach him how to drive.
I understand why this thread might be dumped; thanks for the heads up though. I've memorized any info I think might be helpful, and I don't want what I've said to give anything away (but I probably haven't gotten that close yet).
I'll keep my search going! I've read three of the primary pre-zohar kabbalahistic texts and nada so far, but who knows, right? I just hope I haven't read it already and didn't know it xD
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OMG I GOT IT. I freaking got it! All that hard work... I finally got it!!!!!!!
OMG.
Jim, I wanted to check with you to see if you are online... I was reaaallly hoping I could post it to see if you delete it, but I wanted to make sure if I was right, it wouldn't be hanging around on the forum for all to see.
Soo...
will you be super mad if I post it? Is that okay?
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I'm here.
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You are very much on the right track in terms of sources. What you have uncovered just might lead you to it eventually
Good work.