College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

Going further into islamic mysticism, I discovered some interesting elements to bring to this debate. Have you ever heard of Bohras ? This is a sect of ismaelism and was forced to refugiate in India. During this adaptation, this movement mixed with local hinduism, including some concepts and even gods of this religion. The point is ismaelis have always been fond of gnosis, using ancient greek elements at their edge. Astrology, hermetism, philosphy and occultism was their stuff.
Conclusion : they had the same Quran I have in my librairy, but they understood the idea of unicity of God with another meaning. Is that really orthodox, that is the question. According to salafis and most scholar of islamic religion, certainly not. But I know Thelema considers Islam as an old Aeon religion, so a syncretism is maybe the right response to that interrogation. And the exemple of hinduism as a cult relating a single God with His many faces is pretty relevant to me.

Well, as you certainly understood it before, my fear is the concept of "soul selling" like Goethe described in Faust. I guess after reading a little and chatting with you that it cannot happen, but one point still interests me : You've been coy about the (very unusual case, I know that) where a magician would offer himself totally to one of the Four Princes of evil. Maybe is it irresolvable without personnal experience ? You talked about karmic consequences, it seems to be the most relevant hypothesis in my opinion.

To get back to another topic, we talked a few days ago about impermanence : since Crowley was a great fan of Lao Tze and after reading Liber CLVII, I suppose it does concerns everything, even life and death... But that's maybe an hurried guessing
Still thanks for your references, I'll google Liber LXV as soon as possible.

Sorry for double posting, but :

@Jim Eshelman said

" If an Adept did such a thing as you suggest, it would be both highly unusual and of some particular karmic implication unique to that Adept. It could be a horrible mistake - it could be an enormous act of High Magick - there are too many variables. A Major Adept at the very least should have the resources both to recognize the karmic implications instinctively and to know the magical implications; but, I suppose, if the power urge within the Major Adept exceeded the intimacy of his or her connection to the HGA, then anything is possible.

Mostly, the answer is that this isn't a realistic scenario in close to 100% of the cases. Don't worry about what the Russian President might do if he cornered you, since he isn't likely to return your phone call in the first place."

I know I am involving this topic another time, but could you please be more precize ? After a few consultations of Crowley's most important works (mostly from "Magick in theorice and practice") and their commentaries, I came to the following conclusions :

1. The judeo-christian Devil doesn't exist : a single and alone entity with an evil unity "would be a god" according to the Great Beast.
2. In fact, dealing with demonic entities is possible, but their volonty is to break up the link that connects you with your Holy Guardian Angel. Nevertheless, you won't gain anything in that kind of contract, either those demons ; this is purely and illusion.
3. It is also possible to contact greater evil entities such as Belial, Lucifer, Leviathan and Satan ; but it requires a pretty good knowledge of magick, especially concerning Briah and its particularities.

Did you ever hear of cases like the one I mentionned before ? What would happen if a magician breaks his link with his Holy Guarding angel, concretly ?

Well, I prefer poking my nose in an already existing thread instead of creating a new one : I studied taoism for about two years. I began to read liber CLVII, and it's difficult to define if this translation is a good one or not. A common objection to liber CLVII is To Mega Therion read an ancient chinese text with his own philosophy ; this does not seem relevant to me, but since I do not speak chinese (like, I suppose, a lot of persons there), I am wondering how to consider this book. As it was said above, there are many versions of the Tao Te King ; finding a good one using the same philosophy as Lao Tze (if this wise man existed) is for me an hard task.
I know that the particularity of Crowley's version is it has been written with qabbalistic systems... But with a spiritual and textual point of view, is this the best way to understand this great classic with its true meanings ?

"Mr Crowley, I wanna know what you meant" as Ozzy used to sing I guess you're right, self experience is maybe the most thelemic way to find the truth.
Without telling you my life, I feel ill at ease with the idea of an eternal hell that we could attain by a way or another ; as I say before, it is probably only a fairy tale from the aeon of Osiris. But it is still a pretty annoying notion, and I hope Dion Fortune's book will help me understanding the impermanence of all thing (including afterlife).

@Aion said

"Homework... Do it..."

Yep sir !

Is this webpage relevant to you ?
iao131.com/2012/01/17/death-in-thelema

I tried to translate the passages that Crowley wrote, but some of their meanings are pretty obscure for a person using a basic english. For instance, something that would need and explanation :
"For by Death is Man released only from the Gross Body, at the first, and is complete otherwise upon the Astral Plane, as he was in his Life. But this Wholeness suffereth Stress, and its Girders are loosened, the weaker first and after that the stronger."

The problem is, this vocabulary is classy and rather poetic ; so then, it is difficult to me really understanding what To Mega Therion wanted to tell us.

After thinking about the notion of eternal hell, I wonder if it doesn't contradicts the Law of Thelema : to me, that kind of concept sound pretty much like a "slave mentality" from the old aeon.
Nevertheless, we talked above about suffering states the human can create after his death : do you know how does that happen and in which conditions ?

According to Jim's patient answers, I guess those states of mind cannot last forever, but I think it is interesting to know how Crowley conceived that topic

Let's just say I'm not sure about what happens to us after death, that's it... Nevertheless, I think this book by Dion Fortune could really help me

Thank you both !

@Aion said

"You might better understand the distinctions Crowley is trying to make by reading the following:

www.amazon.com/Through-Gates-Death-Dion-Fortune/dp/0898042240"

What do you exactly mean ?

Thanks Jim

Just a quotation by To Mega Therion to finish this interesting and very explaining conversation :

“One’s ‘immortal soul’ is a different kind of thing altogether from one’s mortal vesture. This Soul is a particular Star, with its own peculiar qualities, of course; but these qualities are all ‘eternal,’ and part of the nature of the Soul. This Soul being a monistic consciousness, it is unable to appreciate itself and its qualities, as explained in a previous entry; so it realizes itself by the device of duality, with the limitations of time, space and causality.”

... "Everything is impermanent" isn't so far.

One question at last : are there any referenced texts by Crowley that deal with life after death ? For instance, is there any allusion to the "Everything is impermanent" notion somewhere ?

In fact, the center of my question is "Is everything impermanent in Thelema ?". You told me in a preview post that we can not be rewarded forever, but how about punishment ? If you sell your soul to a major dark entity, would that have an end ?

I guess yes since the law of karma is involved, but your advice would be welcome

Well, I do not really know the definition of "soul" in Thelema... Maybe this is the origin of my misunderstanding right above.
You mentionned only little drones as demons ; but what would happen if you deal with an higher entity such as Belial (as you named him) or Satan himself ?

Nevertheless, I just read that concluding a pact with a demon could be nothing more than an illusion : nothing in exchange of nothing, to resume it...
To conclude, even if a magician wants to sell his soul to a demon, what would be the consequences for him in his life and afterlife ?

Just a more question related with pacts with demons : I am only a beginner in Thelema's science, but I know commiting pacts with that kind of entities does exist, but it is not recommanded according to Crowley. Many stories about pacts with demons exist in popular tales, but can you "sell" your soul to a demon ? If yes, what is its consequences ? Do you finish in an hellish state of mind according to To Mega Therion ?
I know everything is impermanent in thelemic philosophy, including life after death ; but is this a special case ? Maybe my vision of it is influenced by Faust and that kind of old stories...

Thank you by advance, sorry for my lack of documentation and culture about that topic

Thanks Jim
I didn't think about using those "five more minutes" to write an entry in my spiritual diary... I have to say I do not often practice that : I know Crowley thought that is was really important, and I guess those five minutes could be used for that.

For more explanations about those recommandations (that seem to be mostly superstitious according to you), you have to know I practiced integral yoga, mostly influenced by Sri Aurobindo's works. Not the best one in my opinion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_yoga

Greetings people,

My question is a little bit practical but I believe it is important to speak about it with other persons. I practiced yoga for six months last year ; that wasn't really fascinating in my opinion, but I discovered another face of yoga since I'm interested in Thelema.
You see, I heard that a few precautions had to be observed when practicing yoga :

• Do not take a shower one hour before/after the exercize.
  -Do not eat one hour before/after the exercize.
  -Take five minutes after the exercize to get back in the common world.

To sum up, that was the rules my teacher taught me : do you think it is relevant and why ? I could conceive it as related to vital energies of the body ; of course, since I am only a student in yoga, I am not certain of that, it is only a supposition

What do you think about those three rules ? Is it relevant to practice them ?

The notion of syncretism in holy scriptures of islam is something I noticed for a while : just consider satanic verses time or a few common points with the Talmud and apocryph christian texts and you will have a interesting parallel.
I could recommand people who are not really fond of arabian history to research a few informations about ancient pagan religion of Arabia : Allah was considered as the supreme God of a pantheon. I found this idea original first time I heard it : "how could a pagan religion build a monotheistic cult ?". But my searches and this thread are showing to me that islam didn't really come out of nowhere in history.

Thank you for those more informations Aion
I am currently studying qabbalah, I see I do have many things to learn. But let's admit Allah as the Supreme God of a potential muslim thelemite : I see a contradiction with a very important principle of islam. In fact, the concept of "shirk" ("association") is absolutely forbidden in islam : the only idea of dividing God in three parts as christians do is something that deeply hurts islamic sensibility.

Taking that point, how could a muslim deal with pagan gods ? Maybe I'm a bit narrow-minded, but I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science which has a lot to do with old arabian religion that existed before islam.